From stevethegreen@riseup.net Thu Jun 29 12:17:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0597647DA for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:17:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_50=0.001, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 6qWMyJQhY9FL for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (buffy.riseup.net [208.99.202.32]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 07B3E4071 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4B0A2E83 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (buffy [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26547-15 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51C7A2E6C for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user stevethegreen) by mail.riseup.net with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2915.stevethegreen.1151608549.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) From: stevethegreen@riseup.net To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at riseup.net Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] Collateral damage and Intent X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:17:39 -0000 > Steve, > I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR SUPPOSITION AND AM CONFIDENT AS > A RATIONAL PERSON YOU WILL COME TO MY UNDERSTANDING THE KEY INGREDIENT NOT > MENTIONED IS INTENT. INTENT IS CRITICAL IN ETHICAL REASONING AND LAW. I certainly agree that "intent" is critical as it pertains to ethical reasoning and law. Where I think we might part ways is what is intended and what is not. Certainly Israel is at a disadvantage when those they "search" for hide among innocent civilian populations, but that hardly excuses irresponsible actions that will clearly result in the deaths of innocents. But to suggest that you can fire rockets into a crowded neighborhood and not "intend" to kill innocents is an example of "spin" that seeks to rationalize as "accidental" something that is clearly preventable. Whether one kills himself in a crowded cafe or destroys a neighborhood from a Stealth bomber, both actions knowingly will result in the death of innocent civilians. Superior military technology does not equate to the moral high ground Gary. I know you want it to be that way as does the US military machine as it attempts to rationalize the deaths of hundreds of thousands, but your desire to create a difference by pointing to "intent" is as irrelevant to the mother who loses a child to a sucide bombing as it is to a mother whose child dies from a missile. If I burn down a house to kill the child rapist, but I also kill 10 children being held captive in the house, my intent becomes nothing more than a vacant excuse to justify the unjustifiable. -Steve From politicaltao@taotetao.com Thu Jun 29 19:04:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2006B4579; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.354 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.083, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id bvUaDjjYqUPp; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NORTHROADSYSTEM.trainpac.com (72.b.1343.static.theplanet.com [67.19.11.114]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 591C64071; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([127.0.0.1]) with MailEnable ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:03:49 +0000 From: "E. R. Douglas" To: "'Pac-Green Discuss Group'" , , "Gary Acheatel" , , "Carl Reynolds" , Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:03:48 -0700 Organization: 4POD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01C69BAE.C4B997F0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Cc: Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] RE: [discuss] Carl Reynolds X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: politicaltao@taotetao.com, pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:04:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C69BAE.C4B997F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess I would encourage all of us that are concerned about that little pocket of the world by and large to conduct our conversation on the pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org list. If someone wishes to fill = up the discussion list and exercise their 1st amendment rights, well. I recommend that the larger WE just totally ignore the person. =20 With respect to Israel stuff, I am going to do just that beginning now = on the discussion list. I invite all others to do the same. =20 GreenLantern =20 **************************** E. R. Douglas Mobile (503) 998-9741 Fax (604) 357-1202 **************************** =20 -----Original Message----- From: pgp-discuss-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org [mailto:pgp-discuss-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of Carl Reynolds Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:14 PM To: Pac-Green Discuss Group Subject: Re: [discuss] Carl Reynolds =20 Carl- First of all, for what it is worth, I usually agree with your = perspective. Perhaps using the term "hyperbole" in your case was not accurate. But I do think that you are guilty of some of the same things that Gary Achaetel has been guilty of when you constantly offer biased articles = and opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. =20 "Biased" in the sense it applies to the news articles I send could be = said of almost any news article on any topic. My selection is certainly = biased in that I don't send the Zionist spin. Your concept is the "he said, she = said" routine used by the popular media when, for example, it called for "balanced" coverage of the issue of evolution, insisting creationism be given equal time. Much the same approach is being used by Bush = supporters regarding global warming.=20 =20 The middle east conflict is complex and when you consistantly offer a viewpoint that can accurately be characterized as "one-sided", you contribute to creating a situation where productive dialogue is far less possible. As I admitted, I have done the same thing. I was not trying to sound self righteous or pretend that I have been = above the fray. But after watching the "back and forth" tit for tat commentary about = this subject for several months now, it occured to me that it borders on = being juvenile and it does not serve any purpose other than to entertain egos. I'm interested in learning more from people with perspectives that are different than mine and I don't think "dueling editorials" about the conflict serve the goal of peace or the learning process. =20 I think many of the news items I send do not come under the label "editorial." If I send an article describing how the Israeli Air Force = blew up the Gaza power plant, is that an editorial? Is it an editorial to say = the loss of electricity cut off the water to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who had nothing to do with the seizure of the Israeli = soldier? Are these facts or editorial statements? =20 Is it juvenile to be concerned and to want to redeem the responsibility = for helping to pay for the F-16s and the rockets that blew up the power = plant? Is it editorial or juvenile to say these are acts of collective = punishment? =20 Carl Reynolds Sherwood, Oregon Palestinian Land Losses 1948-2000 http://www.quixote-quest.org/resources/israel_palestine/palestinian_landl= oss _48-00.html =20 Bottom line, it's just my view and my meager attempt to raise the level = of discourse to something that resembles mature and reasoned discussion. Take it for what it is worth to you or disregard it. -Steve > Steve: please identify any hyperbole you have read by me. Please do > so at once in the future. This is the meaning of dialogue. Your > failure to do so and then, later on, makng such an accusation (below) > violates the premise of dialogue. > > Carl Reynolds > Sherwood, Oregon > > >>Gary- >> >>First of all, I am just a member of the PGP, nothing more. >> >>Secondly, I have tried to refrain from participating in any more >>discussions on this subject because it seems that doing so only causes >>further anger and only fuels your penchant for contributing extremely >>divisive biased commentary in response to what you characterize as the >>same. >> >>But my last comments to you were in the spirit of attempting to get = you >> to >>see that your discussion tactics do not serve you or your goals. >> >>I do however concede that Carl and others have been guilty of the same >>type of one-sided hyperbole and contributions that are not conducive = to >>productive dialogue about this extremely complex subject. >>I will also concede that I have been guilty of the same thing at times >> and >>not only with this subject but with others. >> >>I have the ability to step back and examine my words and whether they >>serve me beyond entertainment or my own ego. >>Do you? >> >>I am driven by social justice Gary and unlike you, I don't have a = horse >> in >>this race. I am both a Palestinian and a Jew in the sense that I >>understand that being human supercedes my racial and ethnic origin. >>That gives me a distinct advantage in my analysis. >> >>But make no mistake about it... >>The goliath in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is Israel. >>The goliath in the Iraq conflict is the United States. >>The pursuit of social justice seems to naturally cause those who seek = it >>to side with the "downtrodden" and the weaker side. >>That does not mean that I excuse Palestinian attrocities. >> >>But to point to suicide bombers killing civilians as something less = moral >>than helicopter gunships or tanks killing civilians is simply nothing >> more >>than the propaganda that is similar to that coming from the fascist = Bush >>administration who have invented terms like "collateral damage" in an >>Orwellian method of doublespeak. >> >>In short, why don't we continue these discussions without the shrill >>hyperbole on the discussion list that has been set up for this = specific >>dialogue? >> >>I am interested in your perspective and would like to engage in a >>discussion that goes beyond the surface nonsense that has been so = common >>on this listserve in the past. >> >>What do ya say? >> >>-Steve >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>pgp-discuss mailing list >>pgp-discuss@list.pacificgreens.org >>http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > pgp-discuss mailing list > pgp-discuss@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-discuss > =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C69BAE.C4B997F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [discuss] Carl Reynolds

I guess I would encourage all of us = that are concerned about that little pocket of the world by and large to = conduct our conversation on the pgp-middle-east@li= st.pacificgreens.org list.  If someone wishes to fill up the discussion list and = exercise their 1st amendment rights, well… I recommend that the larger = WE just totally ignore the person.

 

With respect to Israel = stuff, I am going to do just that beginning now on the discussion list.  I = invite all others to do the same.

 

GreenLantern

 

****************************<= /font>

E. R. Douglas

Mobile (503) = 998-9741

Fax      = (604) 357-1202

****************************<= /font>

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: pgp-discuss-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org [mailto:pgp-discuss-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of Carl = Reynolds
Sent: Thursday, June 29, = 2006 5:14 PM
To: Pac-Green Discuss Group
Subject: Re: [discuss] = Carl Reynolds

 

Carl-

First of all, for what it is worth, I usually agree with your = perspective.
Perhaps using the term "hyperbole" in your case was not = accurate.

But I do think that you are guilty of some of the same things that = Gary
Achaetel has been guilty of when you constantly offer biased articles = and
opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

 

"Biased" in the sense it applies to the news articles I send could be said of almost any = news article on any topic. My selection is certainly biased in that I don't = send the Zionist spin.  Your concept is the "he said, she said" = routine used by the popular media when, for example, it called for = "balanced" coverage of the issue of evolution, insisting creationism be given equal = time. Much the same approach is being used by Bush supporters regarding global warming.

 


The middle east conflict is complex and when you consistantly offer = a
viewpoint that can accurately be characterized as "one-sided", = you
contribute to creating a situation where productive dialogue is far = less
possible.

As I admitted, I have done the same thing.
I was not trying to sound self righteous or pretend that I have been = above
the fray.

But after watching the "back and forth" tit for tat commentary = about this
subject for several months now, it occured to me that it borders on = being
juvenile and it does not serve any purpose other than to entertain = egos.

I'm interested in learning more from people with perspectives that = are
different than mine and I don't think "dueling editorials" = about the
conflict serve the goal of peace or the learning = process.

 

I think many = of the news items I send do not come under the label "editorial."  If = I send an article describing how the Israeli Air Force blew up the Gaza power = plant, is that an editorial? Is it an editorial to say the loss of electricity = cut off the water to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who had nothing to do = with the seizure of the Israeli soldier? Are these facts or editorial = statements?

 

Is it juvenile = to be concerned and to want to redeem the responsibility for helping to pay = for the F-16s and the rockets that blew up the power plant? Is it editorial or = juvenile to say these are acts of collective punishment?

 

Carl = Reynolds

Sherwood, = Oregon

Palestinian Land Losses = 1948-2000
http://www.quixote-quest.org/resources/israel_palestine/palestinian_landl= oss_48-00.html

 


Bottom line, it's just my view and my meager attempt to raise the level = of
discourse to something that resembles mature and reasoned = discussion.
Take it for what it is worth to you or disregard it.

-Steve

> Steve: please identify any hyperbole you have read by me. Please = do
> so at once in the future. This is the meaning of dialogue. Your
> failure to do so and then, later on, makng such an accusation = (below)
> violates the premise of dialogue.
>
> Carl Reynolds
> Sherwood, Oregon
>
>
>>Gary-
>>
>>First of all, I am just a member of the PGP, nothing more.
>>
>>Secondly, I have tried to refrain from participating in any = more
>>discussions on this subject because it seems that doing so only = causes
>>further anger and only fuels your penchant for contributing = extremely
>>divisive biased commentary in response to what you characterize = as the
>>same.
>>
>>But my last comments to you were in the spirit of attempting to = get you
>> to
>>see that your discussion tactics do not serve you or your = goals.
>>
>>I do however concede that Carl and others have been guilty of = the same
>>type of one-sided hyperbole and contributions that are not = conducive to
>>productive dialogue about this extremely complex subject.
>>I will also concede that I have been guilty of the same thing at = times
>> and
>>not only with this subject but with others.
>>
>>I have the ability to step back and examine my words and whether = they
>>serve me beyond entertainment or my own ego.
>>Do you?
>>
>>I am driven by social justice Gary and unlike you, I don't have = a horse
>> in
>>this race. I am both a Palestinian and a Jew in the sense that = I

>>understand that being human supercedes my racial and ethnic origin.
>>That gives me a distinct advantage in my analysis.
>>
>>But make no mistake about it...
>>The goliath in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is Israel.
>>The goliath in the Iraq conflict is the United States.
>>The pursuit of social justice seems to naturally cause those who = seek it
>>to side with the "downtrodden" and the weaker = side.
>>That does not mean that I excuse Palestinian attrocities.
>>
>>But to point to suicide bombers killing civilians as something = less moral
>>than helicopter gunships or tanks killing civilians is simply = nothing
>> more
>>than the propaganda that is similar to that coming from the = fascist Bush
>>administration who have invented terms like "collateral damage" in an
>>Orwellian method of doublespeak.
>>
>>In short, why don't we continue these discussions without the = shrill
>>hyperbole on the discussion list that has been set up for this = specific
>>dialogue?
>>
>>I am interested in your perspective and would like to engage in = a
>>discussion that goes beyond the surface nonsense that has been = so common
>>on this listserve in the past.
>>
>>What do ya say?
>>
>>-Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>pgp-discuss mailing list
>>pgp-discuss@list.pacificgreens.org
>>http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> pgp-discuss mailing list
> pgp-discuss@list.pacificgreens.org
> http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-discuss
>

 

------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C69BAE.C4B997F0-- From frank1957nieves@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 11:45:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4A896456B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 2.488 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.488 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-1.141, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=1.091, HTML_40_50=0.496, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.841, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id brrzjcyFdJ4Y for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3485140D6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i28so278389wxd for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:44 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:from:to:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=E7UIwvVozd5+9qqPFwS6LK76F7u/RfXIXD/t+YgQM9aVlwJrcNkLqk+PYUajDIWpHdUABjn1Z6CjUzluBpI4VYfx3om3zN+DMOGNrNwn5mjwUkFrgPWmjn05EVjgZWnvo9tHA5At3f82mulX3jTEPX/9UtdDkXq6G9AoRJYML60= Received: by 10.70.14.14 with SMTP id 14mr1089647wxn; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frankr9udq0gjw ( [172.193.173.169]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id h38sm1939194wxd.2006.06.30.11.45.41; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000601c69c75$625879b0$a9adc1ac@frankr9udq0gjw> From: "Frank Nieves" To: "PGP Middle East" Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:45:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69C3A.AF642550" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] JTA - Breaking News: Churches call for calm in Gaza X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:45:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69C3A.AF642550 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0003_01C69C3A.AF642550" ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C69C3A.AF642550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Churches call for calm in Gaza =20 =20 A coalition of churches appealed to the Bush administration to = restrain Israel and calm the crisis in the Gaza Strip.=20 Churches for Middle East Peace, a Washington-based group of 21 = Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches that receives reports from = Palestinian partner organizations, sent letters Thursday to Michael = Doran of the National Security Council and to David Welch, the top State = Department envoy to the Middle East.=20 The letter characterizes Israel's destruction of Gaza's power = plant and bridges as "acts of collective punishment that have resulted = in tremendous suffering by ordinary Palestinian people."=20 The United States "must work closely with Prime Minister Ehud = Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz and insist that they restrain = their military response and work with" Palestinian Authority President = Mahmoud Abbas "to find a diplomatic resolution to the crisis," the = letter said.=20 The letter also condemned Palestinian militants' capture of = Israeli soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit, which precipitated Israel's invasion. =20 http://www.jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=3D3359&ref=3Ddaily_= briefing ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C69C3A.AF642550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Churches call for calm in = Gaza=20
3D""
A coalition of churches appealed to = the Bush=20 administration to restrain Israel and calm the crisis in the Gaza = Strip.=20

Churches for Middle East Peace, a Washington-based group of 21=20 Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches that receives reports = from=20 Palestinian partner organizations, sent letters Thursday to = Michael Doran=20 of the National Security Council and to David Welch, the top State = Department envoy to the Middle East.=20

The letter characterizes Israel=92s destruction of Gaza=92s = power plant and=20 bridges as =93acts of collective punishment that have resulted in = tremendous=20 suffering by ordinary Palestinian people.=94=20

The United States =93must work closely with Prime Minister Ehud = Olmert=20 and Defense Minister Amir Peretz and insist that they restrain = their=20 military response and work with=94 Palestinian Authority President = Mahmoud=20 Abbas =93to find a diplomatic resolution to the crisis,=94 the = letter said.=20

The letter also condemned Palestinian militants=92 capture of = Israeli=20 soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit, which precipitated Israel=92s=20 invasion.

http://www.jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?int= id=3D3359&ref=3Ddaily_briefing ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C69C3A.AF642550-- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69C3A.AF642550 Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.jta.org/images/spacer.gif R0lGODlhAQABAID/AMDAwAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69C3A.AF642550-- From PeteskiToo@aol.com Fri Jun 30 11:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 70AAC47E8 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 1.469 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.469 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.407, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7IUwmXUmYtRf for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist: delayed 305 seconds by postgrey-1.23 at vidar; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:54:21 PDT Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 337D940D6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PeteskiToo@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.5.) id s.374.5c5d6b4 (39332) for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:49:03 -0400 (EDT) From: PeteskiToo@aol.com Message-ID: <374.5c5d6b4.31d6cc1f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:49:03 EDT To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1151693343" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5318 Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] AMNESTY Intl: Israel/Occupied Territories: Deliberate attacks a war crime X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:54:31 -0000 -------------------------------1151693343 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL PRESS RELEASE =20 AI Index: MDE 15/061/2006 (Public) News Service No: 169 =20 30 June 2006 =20 Israel/Occupied Territories: Deliberate attacks a war crime =20 Deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and =20 infrastructure in the Gaza Strip violate international humanitarian law and=20= constitute=20 war crimes, Amnesty International said today. =20 "Israel must now take urgent measures to remedy the long-term damage it has=20= =20 caused and immediately restore the supply -- at its own cost -- of electrici= ty=20 and water to the Palestinian population in the affected areas," urged the =20 organization. "As the occupying power, Israel is bound under international l= aw =20 to protect and safeguard the basic human rights of the Palestinian =20 population." =20 The deliberate destruction of the Gaza Strip=E2=80=99s only electricity powe= r =20 station, water networks, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is a violat= ion of=20 the Fourth Geneva Convention and has major and long-term humanitarian =20 consequences for the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip. =20 Almost half of Gaza=E2=80=99s inhabitants are now without electricity and wa= ter =20 supplies have also been cut in several areas both by the lack of electricity= , =20 necessary to operate the water pumps used to extract and deliver water, and=20= by =20 the destruction of water mains as a result of the bombings of bridges and =20 roads. =20 The extensive damage caused by Israeli artillery and air strikes against =20 these facilities in recent days is estimated at several millions of US dolla= rs =20 and will require months of work to repair. Unless alternative emergency=20 measures are promptly put in place to restore electricity and water supply=20= the =20 consequences could be dire for the health of the Palestinian population. =20 =20 In a statement the Israeli army said that it had: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6carried=20= out an aerial =20 attack on an electricity transformer station south of Gaza city=E2=80=A6.= =E2=80=9D and that =E2=80=9C =20 The IDF will continue to employ all means at its disposal against Palestinia= n=20 terrorist infrastructure in the Gaza Strip in order to ensure the quick and= =20 safe return home of Corporal Gilad Shalit.=E2=80=9D =20 =20 The destruction by Israeli forces of bridges and roads is slowing down, but=20= =20 not preventing movement between different areas of the Gaza Strip. It is=20 likely to cause severe restrictions on movement during the rainy season in=20= a few=20 months time. At present, it causes disruption to Palestinians civilians, wh= o=20 have to take long detours to reach their workplace, but it does not prevent= =20 the movements of armed groups =E2=80=93 Israel=E2=80=99s stated objective. =20 As the tension between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) and armed =20 groups continues to mount, there is growing concern for the safety of the =20 civilian population. High numbers of Palestinian bystanders, including women= and =20 children, have been killed and injured by Israeli artillery shelling and air= =20 strikes in recent weeks and months. This situation looks set to worsen in=20 light of the end of the unilateral cease-fire which the armed wing of Hamas= and=20 other Palestinian armed groups had been observing since last year. =20 "The hostage-taking of Corporal Gilad Shalit, and the killing of Eliyahu =20 Asheri, the 18 year old settler, by Palestinian armed groups violate fundame= ntal =20 principles of international law. Corporal Gilad Shalit should be released =20 immediately and unharmed." =20 "Both sides to this current stand-off should refrain from taking actions =20 which violate international law and should take steps to provide redress for= the =20 abuses they have committed. The international community, also has an=20 obligation under the Geneva Conventions, to act," said Amnesty Internationa= l. =20 Notes to Editors According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, "collective penalties and=20 likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited" (arti= cle 33)=20 as is the destruction of private or public property, "except where such=20 destruction is rendered absolutely necessar by military operations" (Articl= e 53).=20 The Convention requires all states party to it to search for and ensure the= =20 prosectution of perpetrators of the war crime of "causing extensive=20 destrucdtion ... not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawf= ully and=20 wantonly". "Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects" is a= lso a=20 war crime under Article 8 (b) (ii) of the Rome Statute of the International= =20 Criminal Court. =20 =20 For further information please see:=20 _http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150582006_ (http://web.amnesty.o= rg/library/Index/ENGMDE150582006) . and _http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150602006_=20 (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150602006) . =20 =20 =20 Public Document **************************************** For more information please call Amnesty International's press office in=20 London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5566 Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW. web:=20 _http://www.amnesty.org_ (http://www.amnesty.org)=20 =20 For latest human rights news view _http://news.amnesty.org_=20 (http://news.amnesty.org)=20 =20 =20 ------------------------------------- =20 East Mediterranean Team Amnesty International, International Secretariat Peter Benenson House, 1 Easton Street London WC1X 0DW United Kingdom E-mail: _Eastmed@amnesty.org_ (mailto:Eastmed@amnesty.org)=20 Tel: +44 (0)20 7413 5500 Fax: +44 (0)20 7413 5719 -------------------------------1151693343 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
PRESS RELEASE
 

AI Index:        MDE=20 15/061/2006    (Public)
News Service=20 No:        =20 169            &= nbsp;          =20
30 June 2006
 

  Israel/Occupied Territories: Deliberate attacks a war=20 crime
 

Deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and=20 infrastructure in the Gaza Strip violate international humanitarian law and=20 constitute war crimes, Amnesty International said today.
 
"Israel must now take urgent measures to remedy the long-term damage it= has=20 caused and immediately restore the supply -- at its own cost -- of electrici= ty=20 and water to the Palestinian population in the affected areas," urged the=20 organization. "As the occupying power, Israel is bound under international l= aw=20 to protect and safeguard the basic human rights of the Palestinian=20 population."
 
The deliberate destruction of the Gaza Strip=E2=80=99s only electricity= power=20 station, water networks, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is a violat= ion=20 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and has major and long-term humanitarian=20 consequences for the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.
 
Almost half of Gaza=E2=80=99s inhabitants are now without electricity a= nd water=20 supplies have also been cut in several areas both by the lack of electricity= ,=20 necessary to operate the water pumps used to extract and deliver water, and=20= by=20 the destruction of water mains as a result of the bombings of bridges and=20 roads.
 
The extensive damage caused by Israeli artillery and air strikes agains= t=20 these facilities in recent days is estimated at several millions of US dolla= rs=20 and will require months of work to repair. Unless alternative emergency meas= ures=20 are promptly put in place to restore electricity and water supply the=20 consequences could be dire for the health of the Palestinian population.&nbs= p;=20
 
In a statement the Israeli army said that it had: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6car= ried out an aerial=20 attack on an electricity transformer station south of Gaza city=E2=80=A6.= =E2=80=9D and that =E2=80=9C=20 The IDF will continue to employ all means at its disposal against Palestinia= n=20 terrorist infrastructure in the Gaza Strip in order to ensure the quick and=20= safe=20 return home of Corporal Gilad Shalit.=E2=80=9D 
 
The destruction by Israeli forces of bridges and roads is slowing down,= but=20 not preventing movement between different areas of the Gaza Strip. It is lik= ely=20 to cause severe restrictions on movement during the rainy season in a few mo= nths=20 time. At present, it causes disruption to Palestinians civilians, who have t= o=20 take long detours to reach their workplace, but it does not prevent the=20 movements of armed groups =E2=80=93 Israel=E2=80=99s stated objective.
 
As the tension between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) and ar= med=20 groups continues to mount, there is growing concern for the safety of the=20 civilian population. High numbers of Palestinian bystanders, including women= and=20 children, have been killed and injured by Israeli artillery shelling and air= =20 strikes in recent weeks and months. This situation looks set to worsen in li= ght=20 of the end of the unilateral cease-fire which the armed wing of Hamas and ot= her=20 Palestinian armed groups had been observing since last year.
 
"The hostage-taking of Corporal Gilad Shalit, and the killing of Eliyah= u=20 Asheri, the 18 year old settler, by Palestinian armed groups violate fundame= ntal=20 principles of international law. Corporal Gilad Shalit should be released=20 immediately and unharmed."
 
"Both sides to this current stand-off should refrain from taking action= s=20 which violate international law and should take steps to provide redress for= the=20 abuses they have committed. The international community, also has an obligat= ion=20 under the Geneva Conventions, to act," said Amnesty International.
 
Notes to Editors
According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, "collect= ive=20 penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are=20 prohibited" (article 33) as is the  destruction of private or public=20 property, "except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessar by=20 military operations" (Article 53). The Convention requires all states party=20= to=20 it to search for and ensure the prosectution of perpetrators of the war crim= e of=20 "causing extensive destrucdtion ... not justified by military necessity and=20 carried out unlawfully and wantonly".  "Intentionally directing attacks= =20 against civilian objects" is also a war crime under Article 8 (b) (ii) of th= e=20 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. 
 
For further information please see: http://web.amn= esty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150582006.
and=20 http://web.amn= esty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150602006.
 
 
 
Public Document
****************************************
For more= =20 information please call Amnesty International's press office in London, UK,=20= on=20 +44 20 7413 5566
Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW.&nb= sp;=20 web: http://www.amnesty.org
 
For latest human rights news view http://news.amnesty.org
 
     

-------------------------------------
 
East Mediterranean Team
Amnesty International, International=20 Secretariat
Peter Benenson House, 1 Easton Street
London WC1X=20 0DW
United Kingdom
E-mail: Eastmed@amnesty.org
Tel: &nb= sp;    =20 +44 (0)20 7413 5500
Fax:      +44 (0)20 7413=20 5719
 -------------------------------1151693343-- From frank1957nieves@gmail.com Sat Jul 1 06:53:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 711AE4578 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2006 06:53:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 2.168 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.168 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_10_20=1.351, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id XgDet1MfBSDf for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2006 06:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5CCC040D6 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2006 06:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s16so47757wxc for ; Sat, 01 Jul 2006 06:52:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:from:to:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=KltIX6stM/JhB7mBA64VhaaUiNmzfF/lVuBXc5QRRznyZJM2zEWXWmbT0ql3vmpxe+J0O80o+eVcItxc/tushlW8uFGwARzrAK0scPyLZdfVPuSXvvWhfl4bxh1tq/EZ9Gj99XD31tOMAzW6Wxr5Nrotv8Iuc7gjXST75yrpKCM= Received: by 10.70.131.16 with SMTP id e16mr1509356wxd; Sat, 01 Jul 2006 06:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frankr9udq0gjw ( [172.192.141.171]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id h20sm2125559wxd.2006.07.01.06.52.45; Sat, 01 Jul 2006 06:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005b01c69d15$a0784b30$ab8dc0ac@frankr9udq0gjw> From: "Frank Nieves" To: "PGP Middle East" Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 06:52:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01C69CDA.F0D23770" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] How Israel's Jewish terrorist became a victim X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 13:53:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C69CDA.F0D23770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a terrible story--is it true? Would the Israeli advocates like to comment on this? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- How Israel's Jewish terrorist became a victim by Jonathan Cook Wednesday June 14 2006 http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/31394 ---------------------------------------------------------- "Israel has shown time and again that it selectively enforces law and order, depending on the ethnicity of killer and victim."=20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Imagine the following scenario. A Palestinian gunman boards a bus inside Israel and rides it to the city of Netanya. Close to the end of the line, he walks over to the driver, levels his automatic rifle against the man's head and pumps him with bullets. He turns and empties the rest of the magazine -- one of 14 in his backpack -- into the passenger behind the driver and two young women sitting across the gangway.=20 As bystanders in the street outside look on in horror, our gunman then reloads his weapon and sprays the bus with yet more fire, injuring 20 people. He approaches a woman huddled beneath a seat, trying to hide from him, lowers the gun to her head and pulls the trigger. The magazine is empty. As he tries to load a third clip, she grabs the burning barrel of the gun while other passengers rush him.=20 Seeing their chance, the onlookers storm the bus and fuelled by a mixture of passions -- fury, indignation and fear of further attack -- they beat the gunman to death.=20 As the news breaks, Israeli TV prefers to continue its coverage of a local football match rather report the killings. Later, when the channels do cover the deaths, they start by showing the picture of the gunman with the caption "God bless his soul" -- in the same manner as they would normally relate to the victim of a terror attack. Despite the Prime Minister denouncing the gunman as a terrorist to the world, domestically the media and police concentrate instead on the "lynch mob" who killed the gunman. The police launch a secretive investigation which after 10 months leads to the arrests of seven men on charges of murdering him, and the promise of more arrests to come. A police spokesman describes the men's act against the gunman as one of "cold-blooded murder". Fanciful? Ridiculous? Well, exactly these events have unfolded in Israel over the past year -- except that the location was not the Jewish city of Nentanya but the Arab town of Shafa'amr in the Galilee; the gunman was not a Palestinian but an Israeli soldier using his army-issue M-16; and the victims were not Israeli Jews but Israeli = Arabs.=20 See how it now starts to make sense. The killing of four Palestian citizens of Israel by the 19-year-old soldier Eden Natan Zada on 4 August last year, shortly before the disengagement from Gaza, has been quietly forgotten by the world. After the Arab victims were buried, the only question that concerned Israelis was who killed Zada. They appear now to have got their answer: seven men from Shafa'amr have been rounded up by Israeli police to stand trial for his "cold-blooded" murder. No one was interested in the official neglect of the families of Shafa'amr's dead, all of whom were denied the large compensation payments given to Israeli victims of Palestinian terror. A ministerial committee ruled that, because Zada was a serving soldier, his attack could not be considered a terrorist incident. Apparently only Arabs can be terrorists. To this day the state has not given the families a penny of the compensation automatically awarded to Jewish families. There was no investigation of why Zada, well-known for his extremist views, had been allowed to go AWOL for weeks from his unit without attempts to trace him. Or how his family's repeated warnings that he had threatened to do something "terrible" to stop the disengagement had been ignored by the authorities. No one questioned why, a few days before his attack, the police had sent Zada away after he tried to hand in his gun.=20 Even more disturbing, no one discussed why Zada, who openly belonged to a racist and outlawed movement, Kach, which demands the expulsion, if not eradication, of Arabs from the Holy Land, had been allowed to serve in the army. How had he and thousands of other Kach supporters been left in peace to promote their obscene ideas? Why were these Kach activists, mostly young Israelis, demonstrating openly against the Gaza disengagement, assaulting policemen and soldiers, when the group was supposedly underground? And why did the authorities not round up and question Zada's Kach friends in his West Bank settlement of Tapuah after the attack? Why was their possible involvement in its planning never considered, nor their role in inciting him to his deed?=20 The point was that the Israeli authorities wanted Zada to be dismissed as a lone, crazy gunman -- like Baruch Goldstein before him, the army doctor who in 1994 opened fire in the Palestinian city of Hebron, killing 29 Muslim worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs and wounding 125 others.=20 Although Yitzhak Rabin, the prime minister then, denounced Goldstein as an "errant weed", a shrine and park was built for him nearby, in the settlement of Kiryat Arba, venerating him as a "saint" and "a righteous and holy man". Far from being isolated, his shrine regularly attracts thousands of Israeli Jews who congregate deep in Palestinian territority to honour him. Instead of seeking out and eradicating this growing strain of Jewish fundamentalism in the wake of the Shafa'amr terror attack, Israel claimed that finding and punishing the men who killed Zada was the priority. It was a matter of law and order, said Dan Ronen, the police force's northern commander. He told the Hebrew media: "In a country with law and order, despite the sensitivity, people can't do whatever they see fit. I hope the Arab sector will display maturity and responsibility." This sounds like an outrageous double standard to the citizens of Shafa'amr, and to the country's more than one million Palestinian citizens. Enforcing the law has never been a major consideration when the offenders are Jewish and the victims are Arabs, even when the killings occur inside Israel.=20 Arab citizens have not forgotten the massacre of 49 men, women and children by a unit of soldiers who enforced a last-minute curfew on the Israeli village of Kfar Qassem in 1956, executing the villagers -- Arabs, of course -- at the checkpoint one by one as they innocently returned home from a day's work in the fields. During their trial, the Haaretz newspaper reported that the soldiers received a 50 per cent pay increase and that it was obvious the men were "not treated as criminals but as heroes". Found guilty of an "administrative error", the commander was given a one penny fine. Nor was anyone held to account when six unarmed Arab citizens were shot dead by the security services in the Galilean town of Sakhnin in 1976 as they protested against another wave of land confiscations that deprived rural Arab communities of their farm land. The prime minister of the day, Rabin again, refused even to launch an investigation.=20 Some 25 years later, an inquiry was held into the killing by the police of 13 unarmed Arabs in the Galilee in October 2000 as they protested the deaths of Palestinians at the Noble Sanctuary in Jerusalem -- the trigger for the intifada. Six years on, however, not a single policeman has been charged over the deaths inside Israel. Even the commanders who illegally authorised the use of an anti-terror sniper unit against demonstrators armed only with stones have not been punished.=20 Israel's Arab citizens are also more than familiar with the story of the "Bus 300 affair" of 1984, when two Palestinian gunmen from the occupied territories were captured after hijacking a bus inside Israel. Led away in handcuffs by the Shin Bet security service, the two men were later reported dead.=20 No one was ever charged over the killings, even though it was widely known at the time who had killed the men and later one senior Shin Bet operative, Ehud Yatom, admitted breaking the men's skulls with a rock. In 1986, to forestall the threat of any indictments, the president of the day, Chaim Herzog, gave all the Shin Bet agents involved an amnesty from prosecution. If it is shown in court that Zada was in fact beaten to death after the crowd knew he had been restrained, then this history -- of the state's repeated denial of justice to the Arab victims of its violence -- must be taken into account. No one can reasonably have expected the onlookers to stay calm knowing that Zada, like other Jewish emissaries of the state before him, would receive either no punishment or a few years of jail and a pardon because he killed Arabs rather than Jews.=20 Israel has shown time and again that it selectively enforces law and order, depending on the ethnicity of killer and victim. Commander Ronen observed at a press conference after the Shafa'amr arrests: "Since October 2000 we have come a long way in our relations with the Arab sector." If that is true, which is doubtful, the authorites have again made every effort to tear apart what little is left of that trust. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C69CDA.F0D23770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
This is a terrible story--is it=20 true?
 
Would the Israeli advocates like = to comment=20 on this?
 
How = Israel's=20 Jewish terrorist became a victim
by Jonathan Cook
Wednesday June = 14=20 2006
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/3139= 4

----------------------------------------------= ------------

"Israel=20 has shown time and again that it selectively enforces law and
order,=20 depending on the ethnicity of killer and victim."=20

---------------------------------------------= -------------

Imagine=20 the following scenario. A Palestinian gunman boards a bus
inside = Israel and=20 rides it to the city of Netanya. Close to the end of
the line, he = walks over=20 to the driver, levels his automatic rifle
against the man's head and = pumps=20 him with bullets. He turns and
empties the rest of the magazine -- = one of 14=20 in his backpack -- into
the passenger behind the driver and two young = women=20 sitting across the
gangway.

As bystanders in the street = outside look=20 on in horror, our gunman then
reloads his weapon and sprays the bus = with yet=20 more fire, injuring 20
people. He approaches a woman huddled beneath = a seat,=20 trying to hide
from him, lowers the gun to her head and pulls the = trigger.=20 The
magazine is empty. As he tries to load a third clip, she grabs=20 the
burning barrel of the gun while other passengers rush him. =

Seeing=20 their chance, the onlookers storm the bus and fuelled by a
mixture of = passions -- fury, indignation and fear of further attack --
they beat = the=20 gunman to death.

As the news breaks, Israeli TV prefers to = continue its=20 coverage of a
local football match rather report the killings. Later, = when=20 the
channels do cover the deaths, they start by showing the picture = of=20 the
gunman with the caption "God bless his soul" -- in the same = manner=20 as
they would normally relate to the victim of a terror=20 attack.

Despite the Prime Minister denouncing the gunman as a = terrorist=20 to the
world, domestically the media and police concentrate instead = on=20 the
"lynch mob" who killed the gunman. The police launch a=20 secretive
investigation which after 10 months leads to the arrests of = seven=20 men
on charges of murdering him, and the promise of more arrests to=20 come.
A police spokesman describes the men's act against the gunman = as=20 one
of "cold-blooded murder".

Fanciful? Ridiculous? Well, = exactly=20 these events have unfolded in
Israel over the past year -- except = that the=20 location was not the
Jewish city of Nentanya but the Arab town of = Shafa'amr=20 in the Galilee;
the gunman was not a Palestinian but an Israeli = soldier using=20 his
army-issue M-16; and the victims were not Israeli Jews but = Israeli Arabs.=20

See how it now starts to make sense.

The killing of four=20 Palestian citizens of Israel by the 19-year-old
soldier Eden Natan = Zada on 4=20 August last year, shortly before the
disengagement from Gaza, has = been=20 quietly forgotten by the world.
After the Arab victims were buried, = the only=20 question that concerned
Israelis was who killed Zada. They appear now = to have=20 got their
answer: seven men from Shafa'amr have been rounded up by=20 Israeli
police to stand trial for his "cold-blooded" = murder.

No one=20 was interested in the official neglect of the families of
Shafa'amr's = dead,=20 all of whom were denied the large compensation
payments given to = Israeli=20 victims of Palestinian terror. A ministerial
committee ruled that, = because=20 Zada was a serving soldier, his attack
could not be considered a = terrorist=20 incident. Apparently only Arabs
can be terrorists. To this day the = state has=20 not given the families a
penny of the compensation automatically = awarded to=20 Jewish families.

There was no investigation of why Zada, = well-known for=20 his extremist
views, had been allowed to go AWOL for weeks from his = unit=20 without
attempts to trace him. Or how his family's repeated warnings = that=20 he
had threatened to do something "terrible" to stop the = disengagement
had=20 been ignored by the authorities. No one questioned why, a few = days
before his=20 attack, the police had sent Zada away after he tried to
hand in his = gun.=20

Even more disturbing, no one discussed why Zada, who openly=20 belonged
to a racist and outlawed movement, Kach, which demands the=20 expulsion,
if not eradication, of Arabs from the Holy Land, had been = allowed=20 to
serve in the army. How had he and thousands of other Kach=20 supporters
been left in peace to promote their obscene ideas? Why = were these=20 Kach
activists, mostly young Israelis, demonstrating openly against=20 the
Gaza disengagement, assaulting policemen and soldiers, when the=20 group
was supposedly underground?

And why did the authorities = not=20 round up and question Zada's Kach
friends in his West Bank settlement = of=20 Tapuah after the attack? Why
was their possible involvement in its = planning=20 never considered, nor
their role in inciting him to his deed? =

The=20 point was that the Israeli authorities wanted Zada to be dismissed
as = a lone,=20 crazy gunman -- like Baruch Goldstein before him, the army
doctor who = in 1994=20 opened fire in the Palestinian city of Hebron,
killing 29 Muslim = worshippers=20 at the Tomb of the Patriarchs and
wounding 125 others. =

Although=20 Yitzhak Rabin, the prime minister then, denounced Goldstein
as an = "errant=20 weed", a shrine and park was built for him nearby, in
the settlement = of=20 Kiryat Arba, venerating him as a "saint" and "a
righteous and holy = man". Far=20 from being isolated, his shrine regularly
attracts thousands of = Israeli Jews=20 who congregate deep in Palestinian
territority to honour = him.

Instead=20 of seeking out and eradicating this growing strain of = Jewish
fundamentalism=20 in the wake of the Shafa'amr terror attack, Israel
claimed that = finding and=20 punishing the men who killed Zada was the
priority. It was a matter = of law=20 and order, said Dan Ronen, the police
force's northern commander. He = told the=20 Hebrew media: "In a country
with law and order, despite the = sensitivity,=20 people can't do whatever
they see fit. I hope the Arab sector will = display=20 maturity and
responsibility."

This sounds like an = outrageous=20 double standard to the citizens of
Shafa'amr, and to the country's = more than=20 one million Palestinian
citizens. Enforcing the law has never been a = major=20 consideration when
the offenders are Jewish and the victims are = Arabs, even=20 when the
killings occur inside Israel.

Arab citizens have not = forgotten the massacre of 49 men, women and
children by a unit of = soldiers=20 who enforced a last-minute curfew on
the Israeli village of Kfar = Qassem in=20 1956, executing the villagers --
Arabs, of course -- at the = checkpoint one by=20 one as they innocently
returned home from a day's work in the=20 fields.

During their trial, the Haaretz newspaper reported that = the=20 soldiers
received a 50 per cent pay increase and that it was obvious = the=20 men
were "not treated as criminals but as heroes". Found guilty of=20 an
"administrative error", the commander was given a one penny=20 fine.

Nor was anyone held to account when six unarmed Arab = citizens=20 were
shot dead by the security services in the Galilean town of = Sakhnin=20 in
1976 as they protested against another wave of land confiscations=20 that
deprived rural Arab communities of their farm land. The prime=20 minister
of the day, Rabin again, refused even to launch an = investigation.=20

Some 25 years later, an inquiry was held into the killing by=20 the
police of 13 unarmed Arabs in the Galilee in October 2000 as=20 they
protested the deaths of Palestinians at the Noble Sanctuary=20 in
Jerusalem -- the trigger for the intifada. Six years on, however, = not
a=20 single policeman has been charged over the deaths inside Israel.
Even = the=20 commanders who illegally authorised the use of an anti-terror
sniper = unit=20 against demonstrators armed only with stones have not been
punished.=20

Israel's Arab citizens are also more than familiar with the = story=20 of
the "Bus 300 affair" of 1984, when two Palestinian gunmen from=20 the
occupied territories were captured after hijacking a bus=20 inside
Israel. Led away in handcuffs by the Shin Bet security = service,=20 the
two men were later reported dead.

No one was ever charged = over=20 the killings, even though it was widely
known at the time who had = killed the=20 men and later one senior Shin Bet
operative, Ehud Yatom, admitted = breaking=20 the men's skulls with a rock.
In 1986, to forestall the threat of any = indictments, the president of
the day, Chaim Herzog, gave all the = Shin Bet=20 agents involved an
amnesty from prosecution.

If it is shown in = court=20 that Zada was in fact beaten to death after
the crowd knew he had = been=20 restrained, then this history -- of the
state's repeated denial of = justice to=20 the Arab victims of its violence
-- must be taken into account. No = one can=20 reasonably have expected the
onlookers to stay calm knowing that = Zada, like=20 other Jewish emissaries
of the state before him, would receive either = no=20 punishment or a few
years of jail and a pardon because he killed = Arabs rather=20 than Jews.

Israel has shown time and again that it selectively = enforces=20 law and
order, depending on the ethnicity of killer and=20 victim.

Commander Ronen observed at a press conference after the=20 Shafa'amr
arrests: "Since October 2000 we have come a long way in our = relations
with the Arab sector." If that is true, which is doubtful,=20 the
authorites have again made every effort to tear apart what little = is
left of that trust.
 
 

 ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C69CDA.F0D23770-- From ashland@qwest.net Sun Jul 2 08:45:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2D72A45BE for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.567 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.432, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id I0bZUd-goVnY for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 08:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist: delayed 1748 seconds by postgrey-1.23 at vidar; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 08:45:09 PDT Received: from mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net (mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.112]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id BEA4C408A for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 08:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mpls-pop-11.inet.qwest.net (mpls-pop-11.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.11]) by mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net (Postfix) with QMQP id 1F5D41A9837 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 15:15:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 71-210-17-175.eugn.qwest.net (HELO laptop) (71.210.17.175) by mpls-pop-11.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 2 Jul 2006 15:15:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 08:14:53 -0700 Message-ID: <043b01c69dea$45745dc0$0300a8c0@laptop> From: "Gary Acheatel" To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0438_01C69DAF.98879DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 15:45:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0438_01C69DAF.98879DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. Here are the circumstances. a. Hamas is the elected govt. =20 b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's = right to exist. Neither does Fatah! Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory = that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously = attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring = your death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in = the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy = theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up = on buses on the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian = justice. Gary ------=_NextPart_000_0438_01C69DAF.98879DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you were the head of Israel, what = would you do=20 to bring about peace.
 
Here are the = circumstances.
 
    a. Hamas is the = elected=20 govt. 
 
    b. Hamas does not = disavow=20 terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to exist. Neither does=20 Fatah!
 
 Do you return to some arbitrary = 67 borders=20 and give back the territory that now protects your population centers = that your=20 enemies previously attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn = enemies, desiring your death and not preventing maniacal=20 terrorists?
 
What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. = You want=20 peace. Please answer in the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do = because that=20 is too easy theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children = getting blown=20 up on buses on the way to day camp.  Granted also you want = Palestinian=20 justice.
 
Gary
------=_NextPart_000_0438_01C69DAF.98879DA0-- From stevethegreen@riseup.net Sun Jul 2 09:25:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2F05045BE for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.974 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.013, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id QSWCbfgz5xMt for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (buffy.riseup.net [208.99.202.32]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 891B7408A for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BABA2E8C for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (buffy [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29332-36 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AABA2D37; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user stevethegreen) by mail.riseup.net with HTTP; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4542.stevethegreen.1151857430.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <043b01c69dea$45745dc0$0300a8c0@laptop> References: <043b01c69dea$45745dc0$0300a8c0@laptop> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions From: stevethegreen@riseup.net To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org Cc: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at riseup.net X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 16:25:43 -0000 Thanks Gary! > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. This is an extremely complex question that can not be adequately addressed using an electronic form of communication. Any response given here will only be picked apart using semantics and biased approaches that use "half truths" as their favorite weapon. > > Here are the circumstances. > > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's > right to exist. Neither does Fatah! A few points. 1) The term "terrorism" is the most overused and misused word that has came upon the American political scene since WWI. 2) Hamas would never have been elected had Israel ceased it's illegal occupation. 3) Israel has not disavowed terrorism and in fact, it was only Israel and the United States that vetoed the UN definition of terrorism when the vote was taken. That's because they want to manipulate the word so that they can excercize acts of terror while limiting the options available to the Palestinians who do not posssess the necessary military or technological ability to fight a war. > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously > attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring > your death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? First of all, I don't regard the borders as "arbitrary". That is unless you want to go back through history and pick apart every countries right to conquered areas. But Israel's security is one area where I find myself in some agreement with you. Israel's security is based in part on protecting itself from the strategically important occupied areas. But they lose all credibility when they start building settlements. Illegal settlements do not constitute protecting Israel. It is blatant illegal occupation that should be opposed by anyone who wants to be considered reasonable and credible. > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on > buses on the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. I want peace. I don't believe peace will ever come about until Israel leaves the occupied territories. That needs to happen first. Then we can go from there. -Steve Geiger > Gary_______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > From frank1957nieves@gmail.com Sun Jul 2 09:41:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5162B45BE for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:41:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 2.431 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.431 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[ADVANCE_FEE_1=0, AWL=-1.359, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_10_20=1.351, HTML_FONT_SIZE_LARGE=1.238, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id CugrljJTwU7t for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.231]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8A1F3408A for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i12so761910wra for ; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 09:40:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:from:to:references:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=kH8ljtt57FJA6XcEMrLXSyd1NS3pgNM2K7sgfe0b0ipDjSrIVtNGUe1MVPkefoN4g2gU8iMObCMPr5UG+CtkwgYpqUSOoEgF0DtNWc23+jEK3Pe5UOgCK0Fe6wZLo3VD3W00G1GMqFsOLlts1NEojo/qWJHtKuonwagWyhA7XUM= Received: by 10.54.147.4 with SMTP id u4mr3232792wrd; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 09:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frankr9udq0gjw ( [172.194.133.93]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 14sm917459wrl.2006.07.02.09.39.58; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 09:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006701c69df6$26649740$5d85c2ac@frankr9udq0gjw> From: "Frank Nieves" To: References: <043b01c69dea$45745dc0$0300a8c0@laptop> Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 09:39:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01C69DBB.74F24F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 16:41:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C69DBB.74F24F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I were the head of Israel, I would make up my mind. =20 Do they want it both ways? =20 Do they support Hamas or the PLO? =20 It is apparent that the right wing hates the Palestinians no matter what = government they choose. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- CounterPunch January 18 / 19, 2003 Sharon's Terror Child How the Likud Bloc Mid-wifed the Birth of Hamas By RAY HANANIA Hamas is considered one of Israel's greatest threats, but the Islamic = terrorist organization found its beginnings in the misguided Israeli = effort to encourage the rise of a religious alternative that would = undermine the popularity of the Palestine Liberation Organization and = Yasir Arafat. The strategy resulted in the birth of Hamas which rose from these = Islamic roots. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was a member of the = government when the policy was developed in the late 1970s. Although Sharon and his Likud (formerly Herut Party) government = colleagues could not anticipate that the Islamic leaders they backed = would eventually evolve into Hamas and suicde bombings, the two have = benefited from each other's extremism over the years. The Likud strategy to promote an Islamic alternative evolved in response = to Arafat's transformation from a revolutionary leader to the "sole = legitimate representative" of the Palestinian people. Arafat was = anointed as the only person who could negotiate for the return of the = Occupied West Bank, Gaza Strip and Arab East Jerusalem at the Rabat Arab = Summit in October 1974.=20 In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat = and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable = alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend = Israel's control over the occupied territories. At the time, the = Islamicization of the Palestinian leadership was still very much in its = infancy. But the Islamic Palestinian leaders viewed the relationship with Israel = differently. They were eager to accept Israel's financial backing and an = easing on their activities, but only because they feared that Arafat = would sign away Palestinian land captured by Israel in 1948. If Arafat's weakness was the lack of a long term vision and an inability = to resist short term achievements, his Islamic foes always believed that = the struggle to liberate Palestine was a long term, slow process. Violence was always a part of that picture. The Palestinian Islamic = groups turned to violence during the first Intifadah in 1987. The = Intifadah (1987- 1993) literally began as an uncontrolled, unplanned = explosion of Palestinian frustrations and it gave the Islamicists their = first opportunity to attract popular support. Although Arafat remained the most popular Palestinian leader, he was = still in Tunisia when the first Intifadah exploded in 1987. As = Palestinians fought back against Israel's occupation, Sheik Yassin = decided it was time to launch an armed wing, Hamas, to seek to lead that = armed struggle against Israel's military. Eventually, though, Hamas evolved into a much more extremists movement, = not only targeting Israeli military. Hamas initially turned to the more = extreme form of violence, suicide bombings, as a means of retribution = for egregious Israeli attacks against Palestinians.=20 The first Hamas suicide bombing occurred in April 1994 in response to = the massacre of 29 Muslims months earlier who were praying at the Hebron = Mosque. The number of Hamas suicide bombings only steadily increased = since, bringing the Middle East today to its worst crisis in decades. Later, in the second Intifadah, suicide bombings became the weapon of = choice as more and more Palestinians turned away from Arafat's secular = solution through compromise with Israel and toward faith-based religious = fanaticism. The failure of the peace process to achieve a workable compromise, the = new Intifada or "Palestinian rebellion," the increased terrorism and = suicide bombings, and changes in how the world views political violence = and terrorism since Sept. 11th have all given Likud and the Sharon = government a new mandate. Angered by the suicide bombings, the Israeli public has given Sharon = wide latitude to forcefully respond to Hamas violence and the intifada. = He has eagerly pursued this mandate as a front to achieve his real = political agenda to undermine Arafat and to prevent Israel from = accepting a peace accord that results in the establishment of an = independent Palestinian State. Ironically, this is Sharon's second try to destroy Arafat. He led the = Israeli army assault on the PLO in Lebanon and Beirut in 1982, but that = ended in embarrassment for Israel when the army unilaterally retreated. = Sharon left with his reputation tarnished, blamed for the massacre of = hundreds of Palestinian civilians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee = camps. As the peace process collapsed and as Hamas terrorism increased, = Sharon's agenda found new life. In September 2000 Sharon went to the = Haram al-Ash Sharif (Temple Mount). Although events had been set in = motion by the collapse of peace, Sharon;s visit and his declaration that = Jerusalem will forever be the capitol of Israel sealed the fate of the = unavoidable violence that consumes Palestinians and Israelis today. Likud and Islamicists make strange bedfellows In 1977, newly elected prime minister and Likud (Herut) founder Menachem = Begin decided drastic steps were needed to block Arafat's return. A year later, seeking to undermine Arafat's popularity in the Occupied = Territories, Begin's government approved an application from a 42-year = old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, = to license his humanitarian organization, the Islamic Association. = Later, with the explosion of the first Intifada, the Islamic Association = launched a military arm called Hamas. Begin's successor was Yitzhak Shamir. Both Begin and Shamir were leaders = of the first terrorist organizations that operated in Palestine in the = 1940s.=20 Under Begin and later Shamir, Israel created, funded and controlled the = "Village Leagues," a system of local councils managed by Palestinians = who were hand-picked by Israel to run local city and village = administrations. The plan was devised by Sharon, who was Israel's Defense Minister. = Sharon appointed Menahem Milson, a professor of Arabic literature and = former Hebrew University Dean, as its first Civil Administration leader = in November 1981. Less than one year later, the two broke over Sharon's = role in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and Milson resigned.=20 Over the objections of many Palestinian Islamic leaders including the = Commissioner of the Muslim Waqf in the Gaza Strip, Rafat Abu Shaban, = Israel registered the newly formed "Islamic Association" which Yassin = founded. Yassin was willing to cooperate with the Likud government because he, = too, shared the goal of undermining Arafat's secular influence over the = Palestinians. More importantly, and in line with Likud policies, he = sought to block the creation of a Palestinian State based on = land-for-peace. Israel's Likud government permitted Yassin to launch a newspaper and to = set up charitable fundraising organizations. With funding Yassin raised = and with Israeli funds directed through the Village Leagues, the Islamic = Association built new mosques, new schools, hospitals and medical = clinics. The group established social service and humanitarian agencies = and even job creation venues. Despite its later turn to armed struggle = and suicide bombings, Hamas meticulously directed nearly 95 percent of = the funds it raised to these worthy humanitarian projects.=20 Yassin's followers won significant influence over the Village Leagues = system, another Israeli supported scheme intended to undermine the PLO's = influence and strengthen the hand of "local leaders" that Likud believed = could be co-opted politically. Yassin was not initially involved with violence. Most of the violence = was directed either by Arafat's Al-Fatah organization, based in Lebanon, = or by the other PLO umbrella partners like the Popular Democratic Front = for the Liberation of Palestine. Inside the occupied territories, = another Islamic group called Islamic Jihad was struggling to gain = support among Palestinians living under occupation. The "Islamic Association," was a shadow organization and prodigy of the = more radical Moslem Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928 by Hasan = al-Bana. The group created a Palestinian branch in the 1930s but waged a = mainly rhetorical battle against oppression in the Arab World. Initially, the Moslem Brotherhood and Sheik Yassin's Islamic Association = were not supportive of armed struggle against Israel. Yassin adopted the = Moslem Brotherhoods approach toward a slow Islamicization of the region. = In 1984, Shamir was forced into a coalition government with Labor = Party's Shimon Peres. Under a shared-leadership agreement, Peres held = the office for two years until 1986 before returning it to Shamir. = During those two years, the Likud party leaders saw firsthand the = seriousness of behind-the-scenes negotiations between Labor Party = leaders and Arafat, who was exiled in Tunisia. Yassin and the Islamic Association benefited from a system of Israeli = controlled "Village Leagues," sometimes called Village Councils. The = Village Leagues where largely funded by Israel. But the Islamic = Association was allowed to raise tens of millions more each year from = supportive Arab regimes angry with Arafat. The creation of the Village = Leagues was Israel's first effort to encourage an alternative to the = PLO.=20 Sheik Yassin used the money to operate a network of schools, medical = clinics, social service agencies, religious institutions and provide = direct services to the poverty stricken Palestinian population. Israel saw benefits in the leagues which became a breeding ground for = Palestinian collaborators who were blackmailed or bribed into reporting = on the activities of other Palestinians. Many of them held positions of = leadership in the Village Leagues and were friendly to Israel.=20 The Israeli military gave the League members protection and widespread = powers. As many as 200 of the league members were given weapons training = by Israel. Israel's Shin Bet recruited paid informers from this network = and Israeli sources estimated the number of informants were in the = thousands.=20 Israel Military Government employed as many as 19,000 Palestinians, with = 11,000 of them working as teachers, clerks and administrators.=20 Always the survivor, Arafat and the PLO agreed in 1988 to accept the = "two state" solution based on "land for peace" negotiations. While Likud = responded by trying to sell "autonomy" to the Islamicist movement, the = response of the Islamic Association was unexpected. Reacting angrily to = Arafat's decision to recognize Israel, and seeking to play to = Palestinian emotions during the Intifadah, the new organization, Hamas, = openly embraced armed struggle against Israel. Arafat's first act was to impose controls on Hamas, while Israel moved = to more aggressive policies expelling, jailing and even assassinating = Hamas leaders. As secret talks with Labor Party leaders advanced, Arafat ordered his = loyalists to force Village League members to resign in 1988 sparking = violence between Hamas and Arafat's Al-Fatah supporters. The gap between = Hamas and Al-Fatah widened when Al-Fatah commemorated the 20th = anniversary of the March 21, 1968 battle of Karameh. Karameh was a village in Jordan at the border with the West Bank that = consisted mainly of Palestinian refugees. There, Arafat and his Al-Fatah = faction set up headquarters and directed their armed struggle against = Israel. Israeli troops invaded Karameh but confronted fierce resistance from the = Arafat-led guerrilla defenders. It was particularly important because of = the humiliation Arabs shared for the defeat to Israel in June 1967. The = battle successes added to Arafat's growing charisma among Palestinians. During the commemoration, Palestinian leaders of the Village Leagues = began their mass resignations. The Palestinian Mayor of Beitunia, = Abdallah Rezaq, was the first to dissolve his municipality's council.=20 The only thing that stopped Hamas from growing further was the return of = the Labor Party to power in 1992 and the return of Yasir Arafat to the = West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas is born Strengthened by Village League funding and a vast network of charitable = institutions that were popular among the Palestinian masses, Yassin = authorized the establishment of a military arm of the Islamic = Association in 1987 that he called Hamas. It launched its first attacks = in January 1998, both against Israeli military targets and even against = Arafat's Fataha loyalists in the Gaza Strip. The acronym Hamas comes from the Arabic name, the Islamic Resistance = Movement (Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya). In English, the word Hamas = translates into "zeal." It is appropriate to Yassin's goals. The Moslem = Brotherhood and its sister organizations pursued a policy of gradual = Islamicization of the Arab World and Palestine. It was a policy that = Hamas rejected as being too slow. There is a real irony in the transformation of Yassin's organization = from a benevolent religious foundation to a guerrilla movement. Begin = and his successor, Yitzhak Shamir, had both headed the first two = terrorist organizations to operate in Palestine during the 1940s. Shamir = had led the Stern Gang while Begin led the larger Irgun Zvi Leuhmi. The = two groups worked in tandem and were responsible for introduction of = terrorist techniques into Palestine including car bombings, = assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings of military vehicles and the = lynching of British soldiers in the olive groves outside of Jerusalem. = They were responsible for the near destruction of the car-bombed King = David Hotel and for the massacre of civilians at the Palestinian village = of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem. Begin and Shamir understood exactly what they had created. Knesset = Member Avraham Poraz (Shinui) was among a litany of Israeli leaders who = blamed Likud for Hamas. "The Likud has got Hamas on its hands because it = refused to talk to the PLO," he said.=20 Hamas quickly found itself in competition with another religious group = banned by Israel, Islamic Jihad. Both sought to disrupt the occupation = and seize Palestinian leadership from Arafat. Islamic Jihad distributed a leaflet claiming responsibility for the = killing of restaurateur, Ya'acov Shalom, in Jerusalem's Ein Kerem = neighborhood on May 20, and a fatal bomb attack in the Mahane Yehuda = market the week before. It also labeled Jordan's King Hussein, a Hamas = backer at the time, as a "butcher." That was an apparent reference to = the King's suppression of unrest in Palestinian refugee camps following = another attack at Rishon Lezion, an Israeli settlement outside of Tel = Aviv.=20 But the real rivalry for Hamas was with Arafat's Fatah loyalist. During the first Intifadah, Hamas enforced business closures and = boycotts as a means of protesting Israeli policies and as a way to = control the Palestinian population. Hamas constantly challenged PLO = political positions and thwarted PLO efforts to direct the Intifadah = from abroad. For example, in January 1990, Arafat deputy Abu Iyad publicly complained = that Soviet Jewish immigration to Israel was undermining the peace = process because new immigrants went directly to settlements, and = settlements were created to accommodate this immigration. In response, = Hamas issued an order closing all businesses in the West Bank and Gaza = Strip to protest Soviet Jewish immigration, not simply to join in the = protest but to also steal the thunder from the distant PLO leaders.=20 Shamir was surprised by the Islamic violence. He quickly ordered the = arrest of Hamas political leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi and then a full = scale crackdown on Hamas and the arrest of Sheikh Yassin. But it was too = late. Hamas was now permanently entrenched among a hard core and growing = cadre of Palestinian religious zealots. By February 1990, Israeli officials estimated that Hamas enjoyed solid = backing during the Intifadah from 30 percent of the residents of the = Gaza Strip where it was based. This increased popularity only hastened = Arafat's decision to accept a compromise with Israel in the hopes of = returning and taking charge and prompted Shamir's Labor Party successors = to accept an Arafat deal. Under Labor Party pressure and a "shared government" arrangement with = Likud, Israel agreed to participate in peace talks with the Palestinians = and Jordanians in Cairo. Still, Shamir tried to reduce the role of the = PLO by insisting on vetoing the appointment of the Faisal al-Husseini, = an Arafat confidant and the PLO's Jerusalem representative, to lead the = the Palestinian delegation.=20 Arafat immediately tried to control Hamas, partly to demonstrate his = authority and partly to show his Labor Party partners that he could = deliver. But initial offers of compromise and alliance from PLO = officials were consistently rejected and Hamas remained dedicated to its = hardline, Islamicist ideology which rejected any form of compromise with = Israel. The more the Labor-Arafat peace process advanced, the more Hamas turned = to violence. When Husseini and other PLO officials denounced the murder = of Jewish tourists in Egypt in February 1990, Hamas countered by sending = vehicles with loudspeakers through the streets of major Palestinian = cities praising the attacks and denouncing the PLO for its criticism. = They argued against peace with Israel and more violence. The Likud desire to undermine Arafat remained strong even after Hamas = had been declared a "terrorist organization" and the Labor peace = initiative with Arafat was at its height. In the months after the White = House peace signing, some leaders of the Israel's security forces = pursued contacts with Hamas leaders who were in Israeli jails in the = hopes of getting them to embrace peace at the expense of Arafat's = leadership. The Israelis wanted to use Hamas as a means of pressuring = Arafat into making more concessions.=20 It didn't work. Hamas and Likud benefit from violence There is a natural affinity that exists in a limited way between the = policies and goals of Hamas and the political objectives of the Likud = Bloc that has brought them together. Every time Israeli and Palestinian negotiators appeared ready to take a = major step toward achieving peace, an act of Hamas terrorism has = scuttled the peace process and has pushed the two sides apart. The startling ease with which terrorism has undermined peace is a = testament to the fragility of the peace process and the political = weakness of both Israeli and Palestinian negotiators. Two specific acts = of Likud-inspired violence derailed the momentum of the peace process, = too. Terrorism has been the primary common denominator that exists in the up = and down relationship between the leadership of Israel's Likud and the = Palestinian Hamas movement. It's not that they are working together, but = that their goals are the same. Acts of terrorism can be directly associated with changes in the = political leadership of Israel -- influencing the defeat of Labor Party = government and the rise of the Likud. In the last quarter century, Likud Party candidates have served as = Israel's prime ministers for 17 years, more than double the eight years = served by Labor Party candidates. Since 1977, four Likud candidates have served five times as prime = minister, while three Labor candidates served four times. (Likud's = Menachem Begin, 77-83; Likud's Yitzhak Shamir, 83-84; Labor's Shimon = Peres, 84-86; Likud's Shamir, 86-92; Labor's Yitzhak Rabin, 92-95; = Labor's Peres, 95-96; Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, 96-99; Labor's Ehud = Barak, 99-01; Likud's Ariel Sharon, 01-present.) Efforts to achieve peace between Arafat and Labor were marred by the = violence on both sides with Hamas attacking Israeli targets and Likud = loyalists and members of the pro-Likud settler movement attacking = Palestinians. One of those likud-inspired settler fanatics was Dr. Baruch Goldstein. = In February 1994, Goldstein strolled through Israeli security with an = automatic weapon and opened fire on Muslims praying at the Heborn = Mosque. He killed 29 Muslims. Goldstein took a page out of the Likud = ideology and hoped the massacre would derail the peace process with = Arafat.=20 The Goldstein attack so outraged Hamas leaders that they retaliated in = April 1994 with a Hamas bomber who drove an explosive laden car into a = civilian bus in the Israeli city of Afula. Eight people died and 50 were = wounded.=20 Likud-inspired violence was not reserved for Palestinian targets. Less = than a year later, an Israeli fanatic inspired by Likud rhetoric = assassinated Rabin. Rabin's widow, Leah Rabin, directly placed the blame = for her husband's assassination on the Likud party and its anti-peace = rhetoric. Leah Rabin declared that the assassin was incited to violence = by the vicious language of Likud's silver-tongued leader, Benjamin = Netanyahu. Rabin's murder undermined the Labor Party's future and sabotaged the = Israeli-Palestinian peace process pushing all sides back to violence.=20 In otherwords, violence did for the Likud what violence had achieved for = Hamas in terms of stopping the peace process. Politically, Hamas and Israel's Likud Bloc share several common goals, = each for different reasons. They both oppose the Land-for-Peace formula = and object to the creation of an independent Palestinian State. Hamas = seeks to establish an Islamic State in Palestine while the Likud seeks = the formal expansion of Israel into the occupied West Bank and Arab East = Jerusalem. Likud seeks to annex the territories providing the = Palestinians with administrative autonomy but not independence or = sovereignty. In contrast, the PLO and the Labor Party also share several goals and = oppose the policies of Likud and Hamas. Both accepted in formal written = agreements in September 1993 at the White House a peace accord that = recognized Israel's right to exist and the Palestinian right to = statehood.=20 While Likud and Labor battle over ideology and politics, Hamas differs = with the PLO on issues of religion and it rejects compromise.=20 Hamas views the PLO as an important organization but much like a = "wayward brother." It's stated goal is the creation of an Islamic State = in Palestine, one that subjugates not only Jews but Christians and other = religions, too. The PLO has recognized Israel and, like the Labor Party, = has accepted the Land-for-Peace principle. While Hamas views all Israeli politics as identical, its violence twice = helped elect Likud candidates to the office of Prime Minister. It is this politics of opposition that drives Likud and Hamas to share = similar goals. Arab regimes flipflop on Hamas As peace moved forward, the Arab World also shifted from supporting the = Islamic militant movement to opposing it. The Muslim Brotherhood and later Hamas enjoyed the backing, for example, = of King Hussein of Jordan and several other Arab government leaders not = just during its rise, but even years later. In Jan. 1991, the new Jordanian Government included members of the = Moslem Brotherhood, insuring that Jordanian funds would continue to = Hamas. In a show of how important King Hussein viewed the religious = organization, King Hussein pressured Israel to release Yassin from his = Israeli prison in 1997. It was a price demanded by the monarch for his = freeing of Israeli Mossad agents who were arrested after bungling the = attempted assassination of a Hamas leader in Jordan. After his release, Yassin devoted his energies to repairing damage to = Hamas' educational and charitable institutions inflicted during Israel's = sweeping 1996 crackdown. Hamas' military wing directed attacks from its = safe haven in Amman, Jordan. Like many Arab leaders who viewed Arafat as a threat, King Hussein was = willing to live with Hamas militancy as a counter-balance to Arafat. = Jordan viewed Hamas as a natural rival to Arafat's leadership. Despite = his public rhetoric, the Jordanian Monarch could never forgive Arafat = for his efforts to destabilize his government. Half of Jordan's = population consisted of Palestinians, most of them refugees from the = 1948 and the 1967 Arab-Israeli wars. As Hamas stepped up attacks against Israel and was denounced by Israelis = as a terrorist organization, Hamas enjoyed growing support among the = Arab regimes. Ironically, it was easier to show lipservice to Hamas than = to lead their own wars against Israel.=20 Arafat's misunderstood support of Iraq during the Gulf War did much to = strengthen Arab support of Hamas. Hamas received more financial support = from Kuwait after Hamas leaders publicly denounced Saddam Hussein and = likened the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait to the Israeli occupation of = Palestine.=20 Other Arab Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia continued to channel funds = to both the PLO and Hamas, but favored Hamas' religious militancy and = its Islamic charitable foundations and social service agencies. Arafat was publicly humiliated by Kuwait at the 1990 "Baghdad summit" = when he demanded to know why Kuwait had paid less than one-eighth of the = money it had promised the Palestinians. The emir of Kuwait, Sheikh = Jabber al-Ahmed al-Sabah responded by producing data that showed in fact = Kuwait had continued to support the Palestinian cause, but through Hamas = instead of through the PLO.=20 As the Arab government's slowly supported the Arafat-Rabin peace = accords, support for Hamas began to wane. Hamas turned elsewhere, to = Iran's Islamic government. In August 1999, Jordan closed the group's = political bureau, arrested its leaders and prohibited Hamas from = operating out of Jordan.=20 As the peace process progressed, Hamas influence continued to fall. = Hamas struggled to sustain its network of charitable and social agency = service agencies in the West Bank (notably Tulkarm) and also in Gaza = where they had more support. Hamas shifted most of its military and = political leadership from Amman, Jordan to a more sympathetic Damascus, = Syria. Still, the network that Shamir and the Likud helped create for Hamas = preserved its funding resources. Even after breaking with Jordan and = other Arab countries, sources estimated the Hamas budget at between = $40-70 million a year. The peace process teeters on the brink of Hamas attacks In early April 1990, Palestine National Council Chairman Sheikh Abdel = Hamid a-Sayeh invited Hamas to join a committee preparing the next = Palestine National Council meeting. (The PNC was the umbrella group that = included representatives of most Palestinian organizations and mainly = the PLO.) Hamas circulated a memorandum in the territories on April 6, = 1990 setting for the conditions the PLO would have to meet: Hamas would = only join the Palestine National Council if the PLO withdrew its = "acceptance of partition," rejects territorial concessions, and refuses = to recognize Israel. The statement also demanded that Hamas be given up = to 50 percent of the PNC seats, and a modification of the Palestinian = National Covenant "in accordance with the faith of the Moslem = Palestinian people and its glorious heritage."=20 Even President Clinton recognized the ability of Hamas to disrupt the = peace process. On January 24, 1995, Clinton signed an Executive Order = prohibiting transactions with Hamas due to their potential for = disrupting the Middle East peace process. This included all of Hamas' = subgroups including the Izzedin Al-Qassem Brigades. Even with the change = in attitudes of the Arab governments, pressure from the Clinton = Administration and a reversal in Israel's policies toward Yassin, the = road to undermining Hamas' extensive funding network was difficult.=20 Eventually, Hamas was forced to consider, at least briefly, a possible = compromise with Arafat in order to survive. By 1998, Yassin publicly = broke from the Hamas Charter and participated at a meeting of the PNC. = His presence prevented the PNA from declaring Palestinian statehood, but = it brought a harsh rebuke from the Hamas leadership outside of the = territories. Hamas political head Khaled Meshal and treasurer Musa Abu = Marzook, both in Jordan, and Hamas' Damascus representative Imad Alami = all urged Yassin to resign.=20 As peace falters Hamas influence rises Support for Hamas declines as the peace process moves ahead and = increases as the peace process falters. Prior to the peace process, = support among the Palestinians for Hamas was estimated by the Israelis = at 20-40 percent in the West Bank and 60-80 percent in the Gaza Strip. = This fell to 15-25 percent during the peace process.=20 And undermining the peace process has always been the real target of = Hamas and has played into the political ambitions of the Likud. = Continued Hamas suicide bombings and violence has played a significant = role in undermining and bringing the peace process to a grinding halt, = and set the stage for Sharon's election over Labor Party leader Ehud = Barak in 2001. As the peace accords lumbered ahead, Hamas stepped up its terrorist = suicide attacks. About a dozen suicide bombings were attempted in the = months after the PLO-Israel accord was signed at the White House in = September, 1993.=20 Initially, the peace process persisted in the face of these heinous = terrorist attacks. But it couldn't stand the pressure of the = gut-wrenching images of suicide bomb attacks. In February and March = 1996, Hamas launched a series of suicide bombings in retaliation for the = Israeli assassination of alleged Hamas bomb-maker Yahya Aiyash the month = prior. These attacks contributed mightily to bringing down the Peres = government and helped return the Likud back to power electing the more = hardline but silver-tongued young Turk, Benjamin Netanyahu. The wave of deadly Hamas bombings took 60 Israeli lives in eight days, = prompting Arafat to clamp down on Hamas even more - some 1,000 = Palestinians were arrested and Arafat's Palestinian National Authority = government, established under Labor, even ousted Hamas from some of its = mosques. The suicide attacks continued through 1997 giving Netanyahu = public support to halt the peace process and reverse agreements made by = the murdered Rabin. Netanyahu ignored Arafat's efforts to crackdown on Hamas and the peace = process came to a grinding halt.=20 Similarly, Hamas suicide bombings during the Barak administration = coupled with the failure to reach a peace accord on President Clinton's = timetable, and Sharon's provocative incursion to the "Temple Mount" on = September 28th, 2000 provoked the second Intifadah. Although the Israelis insist that second Intifadah was responsible for a = wave of Israeli killings, during the first week of the conflict, 50 = Palestinians had been killed and five Israelis had died. Among the dead = were nine Palestinian protesters whose deaths sparked the Intifadah's = start. The Israeli response was repressive and heightened Palestinian = response. And, when two Israeli reservists (suspected of being = undercover government assassins) were captured and murdered viciously in = Ramallah on October 12th, 2000, the slide to total Palestinian-Israeli = conflict was already set in stone. Barak declared his decision to resign to give himself a 60-day window = before elections to controlt he conflict and authorized secret meetings = at Taba where Palestinian and Israeli negotiators desperately tried to = reach an accord. But, it was too late, Sharon had achieved his objectives. Sharon did not = need a major Hamas suicide bombing to win his election against Barak. = The Sharon inspired Intifadah and the violence it caused on both sides = swung Israeli voters to the hard right, giving him a landslide victory = against Barak on Feb. 7, 2001. Clearly recognizing that their violent strategy was bringing down the = Arafat government, halting the peace process and playing into the = emotions of the Palestinians, Hamas launched another wave of suicide = bombings in the week after Sharon's election. Sharon used these attacks = as the pretext to launch a massive invasion of PNA controlled areas of = the West Bank and decimating Arafat's government infrastructure. Hamas terrorism played into the rage and the frustrations of the = Palestinian people, who helplessly watched as the promise of peace = evaporated before their eyes. They had never tasted its fruits but only = heard its empty promises. The were a people on the edge and easy victims = for Sharon's political manipulations. The conflict continues its escalation. The number of Palestinian and = Israeli dead continues to climb. The terrorist attacks on September 11th = by madman Osama Bin Laden in the name of Islam only served to further = build a barrier that prevents reasonable people to achieve a peace. And, once again, the real benefactor of the violence and conflict is = Israel's right wing Likud Bloc and its new leader, Ariel Sharon, the man = that his fanatic supporters affectionately call "Bulldozer." Ray Hanania is a Palestinian American author and veteran award winning = journalist. Based on Chicago, he is a columnist on Middle East affairs = for Creators Syndicate. He can be reached at www.hanania.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Acheatel=20 To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. Here are the circumstances. a. Hamas is the elected govt. =20 b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's = right to exist. Neither does Fatah! Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory = that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously = attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring = your death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in = the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy = theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up = on buses on the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian = justice. Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- _______________________________________________ Pgp-middle-east mailing list Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C69DBB.74F24F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If I=20 were the head of Israel,= I=20 would make up my mind.

 

Do=20 they want it both ways?

 

Do=20 they support Hamas or the PLO?

 

It=20 is apparent that the right wing hates the Palestinians no matter what = government=20 they choose.

 
 
CounterPunch

January 18 /=20 19, 2003

Sharon's Terror Child

How the = Likud Bloc=20 Mid-wifed the Birth of Hamas

By RAY HANANIA

Hamas is=20 considered one of Israel's greatest threats, but the Islamic terrorist=20 organization found its beginnings in the misguided Israeli effort to = encourage=20 the rise of a religious alternative that would undermine the popularity = of the=20 Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasir Arafat.

The strategy resulted in the birth of Hamas = which rose=20 from these Islamic roots. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was a = member of=20 the government when the policy was developed in the late = 1970s.

Although Sharon and his Likud (formerly Herut = Party)=20 government colleagues could not anticipate that the Islamic leaders they = backed=20 would eventually evolve into Hamas and suicde bombings, the two have = benefited=20 from each other's extremism over the years.

The Likud strategy to promote an Islamic = alternative=20 evolved in response to Arafat's transformation from a revolutionary = leader to=20 the "sole legitimate representative" of the Palestinian people. Arafat = was=20 anointed as the only person who could negotiate for the return of the = Occupied=20 West Bank, Gaza Strip and Arab East Jerusalem at the Rabat Arab Summit = in=20 October 1974.

In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian = masses away=20 from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could = achieve a=20 workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also = extend=20 Israel's control over the occupied territories. At the time, the = Islamicization=20 of the Palestinian leadership was still very much in its = infancy.

But the Islamic Palestinian leaders viewed the=20 relationship with Israel differently. They were eager to accept Israel's = financial backing and an easing on their activities, but only because = they=20 feared that Arafat would sign away Palestinian land captured by Israel = in=20 1948.

If Arafat's weakness was the lack of a long term = vision=20 and an inability to resist short term achievements, his Islamic foes = always=20 believed that the struggle to liberate Palestine was a long term, slow=20 process.

Violence was always a part of that picture. The=20 Palestinian Islamic groups turned to violence during the first Intifadah = in=20 1987. The Intifadah (1987- 1993) literally began as an uncontrolled, = unplanned=20 explosion of Palestinian frustrations and it gave the Islamicists their = first=20 opportunity to attract popular support.

Although Arafat remained the most popular = Palestinian=20 leader, he was still in Tunisia when the first Intifadah exploded in = 1987. As=20 Palestinians fought back against Israel's occupation, Sheik Yassin = decided it=20 was time to launch an armed wing, Hamas, to seek to lead that armed = struggle=20 against Israel's military.

Eventually, though, Hamas evolved into a much = more=20 extremists movement, not only targeting Israeli military. Hamas = initially turned=20 to the more extreme form of violence, suicide bombings, as a means of=20 retribution for egregious Israeli attacks against Palestinians. =

The first Hamas suicide bombing occurred in = April 1994 in=20 response to the massacre of 29 Muslims months earlier who were praying = at the=20 Hebron Mosque. The number of Hamas suicide bombings only steadily = increased=20 since, bringing the Middle East today to its worst crisis in = decades.

Later, in the second Intifadah, suicide bombings = became=20 the weapon of choice as more and more Palestinians turned away from = Arafat's=20 secular solution through compromise with Israel and toward faith-based = religious=20 fanaticism.

The failure of the peace process to achieve a = workable=20 compromise, the new Intifada or "Palestinian rebellion," the increased = terrorism=20 and suicide bombings, and changes in how the world views political = violence and=20 terrorism since Sept. 11th have all given Likud and the Sharon = government a new=20 mandate.

Angered by the suicide bombings, the Israeli = public has=20 given Sharon wide latitude to forcefully respond to Hamas violence and = the=20 intifada. He has eagerly pursued this mandate as a front to achieve his = real=20 political agenda to undermine Arafat and to prevent Israel from = accepting a=20 peace accord that results in the establishment of an independent = Palestinian=20 State.

Ironically, this is Sharon's second try to = destroy Arafat.=20 He led the Israeli army assault on the PLO in Lebanon and Beirut in = 1982, but=20 that ended in embarrassment for Israel when the army unilaterally = retreated.=20 Sharon left with his reputation tarnished, blamed for the massacre of = hundreds=20 of Palestinian civilians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee = camps.

As the peace process collapsed and as Hamas = terrorism=20 increased, Sharon's agenda found new life. In September 2000 Sharon went = to the=20 Haram al-Ash Sharif (Temple Mount). Although events had been set in = motion by=20 the collapse of peace, Sharon;s visit and his declaration that Jerusalem = will=20 forever be the capitol of Israel sealed the fate of the unavoidable = violence=20 that consumes Palestinians and Israelis today.

Likud and Islamicists = make strange=20 bedfellows

In 1977, newly elected prime minister and Likud = (Herut)=20 founder Menachem Begin decided drastic steps were needed to block = Arafat's=20 return.

A year later, seeking to undermine Arafat's = popularity in=20 the Occupied Territories, Begin's government approved an application = from a=20 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad = Yassin,=20 to license his humanitarian organization, the Islamic Association. = Later, with=20 the explosion of the first Intifada, the Islamic Association launched a = military=20 arm called Hamas.

Begin's successor was Yitzhak Shamir. Both Begin = and=20 Shamir were leaders of the first terrorist organizations that operated = in=20 Palestine in the 1940s.

Under Begin and later Shamir, Israel created, = funded and=20 controlled the "Village Leagues," a system of local councils managed by=20 Palestinians who were hand-picked by Israel to run local city and = village=20 administrations.

The plan was devised by Sharon, who was Israel's = Defense=20 Minister. Sharon appointed Menahem Milson, a professor of Arabic = literature and=20 former Hebrew University Dean, as its first Civil Administration leader = in=20 November 1981. Less than one year later, the two broke over Sharon's = role in the=20 Sabra and Shatilla massacres and Milson resigned.

Over the objections of many Palestinian Islamic = leaders=20 including the Commissioner of the Muslim Waqf in the Gaza Strip, Rafat = Abu=20 Shaban, Israel registered the newly formed "Islamic Association" which = Yassin=20 founded.

Yassin was willing to cooperate with the Likud = government=20 because he, too, shared the goal of undermining Arafat's secular = influence over=20 the Palestinians. More importantly, and in line with Likud policies, he = sought=20 to block the creation of a Palestinian State based on = land-for-peace.

Israel's Likud government permitted Yassin to = launch a=20 newspaper and to set up charitable fundraising organizations. With = funding=20 Yassin raised and with Israeli funds directed through the Village = Leagues, the=20 Islamic Association built new mosques, new schools, hospitals and = medical=20 clinics. The group established social service and humanitarian agencies = and even=20 job creation venues. Despite its later turn to armed struggle and = suicide=20 bombings, Hamas meticulously directed nearly 95 percent of the funds it = raised=20 to these worthy humanitarian projects.

Yassin's followers won significant influence = over the=20 Village Leagues system, another Israeli supported scheme intended to = undermine=20 the PLO's influence and strengthen the hand of "local leaders" that = Likud=20 believed could be co-opted politically.

Yassin was not initially involved with violence. = Most of=20 the violence was directed either by Arafat's Al-Fatah organization, = based in=20 Lebanon, or by the other PLO umbrella partners like the Popular = Democratic Front=20 for the Liberation of Palestine. Inside the occupied territories, = another=20 Islamic group called Islamic Jihad was struggling to gain support among=20 Palestinians living under occupation.

The "Islamic Association," was a shadow = organization and=20 prodigy of the more radical Moslem Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928 = by=20 Hasan al-Bana. The group created a Palestinian branch in the 1930s but = waged a=20 mainly rhetorical battle against oppression in the Arab = World.

Initially, the Moslem Brotherhood and Sheik = Yassin's=20 Islamic Association were not supportive of armed struggle against = Israel. Yassin=20 adopted the Moslem Brotherhoods approach toward a slow Islamicization of = the=20 region.

In 1984, Shamir was forced into a coalition = government=20 with Labor Party's Shimon Peres. Under a shared-leadership agreement, = Peres held=20 the office for two years until 1986 before returning it to Shamir. = During those=20 two years, the Likud party leaders saw firsthand the seriousness of=20 behind-the-scenes negotiations between Labor Party leaders and Arafat, = who was=20 exiled in Tunisia.

Yassin and the Islamic Association benefited = from a system=20 of Israeli controlled "Village Leagues," sometimes called Village = Councils. The=20 Village Leagues where largely funded by Israel. But the Islamic = Association was=20 allowed to raise tens of millions more each year from supportive Arab = regimes=20 angry with Arafat. The creation of the Village Leagues was Israel's = first effort=20 to encourage an alternative to the PLO.

Sheik Yassin used the money to operate a network = of=20 schools, medical clinics, social service agencies, religious = institutions and=20 provide direct services to the poverty stricken Palestinian=20 population.

Israel saw benefits in the leagues which became = a breeding=20 ground for Palestinian collaborators who were blackmailed or bribed into = reporting on the activities of other Palestinians. Many of them held = positions=20 of leadership in the Village Leagues and were friendly to Israel. =

The Israeli military gave the League members = protection=20 and widespread powers. As many as 200 of the league members were given = weapons=20 training by Israel. Israel's Shin Bet recruited paid informers from this = network=20 and Israeli sources estimated the number of informants were in the = thousands.=20

Israel Military Government employed as many as = 19,000=20 Palestinians, with 11,000 of them working as teachers, clerks and=20 administrators.

Always the survivor, Arafat and the PLO agreed = in 1988 to=20 accept the "two state" solution based on "land for peace" negotiations. = While=20 Likud responded by trying to sell "autonomy" to the Islamicist movement, = the=20 response of the Islamic Association was unexpected. Reacting angrily to = Arafat's=20 decision to recognize Israel, and seeking to play to Palestinian = emotions during=20 the Intifadah, the new organization, Hamas, openly embraced armed = struggle=20 against Israel.

Arafat's first act was to impose controls on = Hamas, while=20 Israel moved to more aggressive policies expelling, jailing and even=20 assassinating Hamas leaders.

As secret talks with Labor Party leaders = advanced, Arafat=20 ordered his loyalists to force Village League members to resign in 1988 = sparking=20 violence between Hamas and Arafat's Al-Fatah supporters. The gap between = Hamas=20 and Al-Fatah widened when Al-Fatah commemorated the 20th anniversary of = the=20 March 21, 1968 battle of Karameh.

Karameh was a village in Jordan at the border = with the=20 West Bank that consisted mainly of Palestinian refugees. There, Arafat = and his=20 Al-Fatah faction set up headquarters and directed their armed struggle = against=20 Israel.

Israeli troops invaded Karameh but confronted = fierce=20 resistance from the Arafat-led guerrilla defenders. It was particularly=20 important because of the humiliation Arabs shared for the defeat to = Israel in=20 June 1967. The battle successes added to Arafat's growing charisma among = Palestinians.

During the commemoration, Palestinian leaders of = the=20 Village Leagues began their mass resignations. The Palestinian Mayor of=20 Beitunia, Abdallah Rezaq, was the first to dissolve his municipality's = council.=20

The only thing that stopped Hamas from growing = further was=20 the return of the Labor Party to power in 1992 and the return of Yasir = Arafat to=20 the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Hamas is = born

Strengthened by Village League funding and a = vast network=20 of charitable institutions that were popular among the Palestinian = masses,=20 Yassin authorized the establishment of a military arm of the Islamic = Association=20 in 1987 that he called Hamas. It launched its first attacks in January = 1998,=20 both against Israeli military targets and even against Arafat's Fataha = loyalists=20 in the Gaza Strip.

The acronym Hamas comes from the Arabic name, = the Islamic=20 Resistance Movement (Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya). In = English, the=20 word Hamas translates into "zeal." It is appropriate to Yassin's goals. = The=20 Moslem Brotherhood and its sister organizations pursued a policy of = gradual=20 Islamicization of the Arab World and Palestine. It was a policy that = Hamas=20 rejected as being too slow.

There is a real irony in the transformation of = Yassin's=20 organization from a benevolent religious foundation to a guerrilla = movement.=20 Begin and his successor, Yitzhak Shamir, had both headed the first two = terrorist=20 organizations to operate in Palestine during the 1940s. Shamir had led = the Stern=20 Gang while Begin led the larger Irgun Zvi Leuhmi. The two groups worked = in=20 tandem and were responsible for introduction of terrorist techniques = into=20 Palestine including car bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, = hijackings of=20 military vehicles and the lynching of British soldiers in the olive = groves=20 outside of Jerusalem. They were responsible for the near destruction of = the=20 car-bombed King David Hotel and for the massacre of civilians at the = Palestinian=20 village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem.

Begin and Shamir understood exactly what they = had created.=20 Knesset Member Avraham Poraz (Shinui) was among a litany of Israeli = leaders who=20 blamed Likud for Hamas. "The Likud has got Hamas on its hands because it = refused=20 to talk to the PLO," he said.

Hamas quickly found itself in competition with = another=20 religious group banned by Israel, Islamic Jihad. Both sought to disrupt = the=20 occupation and seize Palestinian leadership from Arafat.

Islamic Jihad distributed a leaflet claiming=20 responsibility for the killing of restaurateur, Ya'acov Shalom, in = Jerusalem's=20 Ein Kerem neighborhood on May 20, and a fatal bomb attack in the Mahane = Yehuda=20 market the week before. It also labeled Jordan's King Hussein, a Hamas = backer at=20 the time, as a "butcher." That was an apparent reference to the King's=20 suppression of unrest in Palestinian refugee camps following another = attack at=20 Rishon Lezion, an Israeli settlement outside of Tel Aviv.

But the real rivalry for Hamas was with Arafat's = Fatah=20 loyalist.

During the first Intifadah, Hamas enforced = business=20 closures and boycotts as a means of protesting Israeli policies and as a = way to=20 control the Palestinian population. Hamas constantly challenged PLO = political=20 positions and thwarted PLO efforts to direct the Intifadah from=20 abroad.

For example, in January 1990, Arafat deputy Abu = Iyad=20 publicly complained that Soviet Jewish immigration to Israel was = undermining the=20 peace process because new immigrants went directly to settlements, and=20 settlements were created to accommodate this immigration. In response, = Hamas=20 issued an order closing all businesses in the West Bank and Gaza Strip = to=20 protest Soviet Jewish immigration, not simply to join in the protest but = to also=20 steal the thunder from the distant PLO leaders.

Shamir was surprised by the Islamic violence. He = quickly=20 ordered the arrest of Hamas political leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi and = then a=20 full scale crackdown on Hamas and the arrest of Sheikh Yassin. But it = was too=20 late. Hamas was now permanently entrenched among a hard core and growing = cadre=20 of Palestinian religious zealots.

By February 1990, Israeli officials estimated = that Hamas=20 enjoyed solid backing during the Intifadah from 30 percent of the = residents of=20 the Gaza Strip where it was based. This increased popularity only = hastened=20 Arafat's decision to accept a compromise with Israel in the hopes of = returning=20 and taking charge and prompted Shamir's Labor Party successors to accept = an=20 Arafat deal.

Under Labor Party pressure and a "shared = government"=20 arrangement with Likud, Israel agreed to participate in peace talks with = the=20 Palestinians and Jordanians in Cairo. Still, Shamir tried to reduce the = role of=20 the PLO by insisting on vetoing the appointment of the Faisal = al-Husseini, an=20 Arafat confidant and the PLO's Jerusalem representative, to lead the the = Palestinian delegation.

Arafat immediately tried to control Hamas, = partly to=20 demonstrate his authority and partly to show his Labor Party partners = that he=20 could deliver. But initial offers of compromise and alliance from PLO = officials=20 were consistently rejected and Hamas remained dedicated to its hardline, = Islamicist ideology which rejected any form of compromise with=20 Israel.

The more the Labor-Arafat peace process = advanced, the more=20 Hamas turned to violence. When Husseini and other PLO officials = denounced the=20 murder of Jewish tourists in Egypt in February 1990, Hamas countered by = sending=20 vehicles with loudspeakers through the streets of major Palestinian = cities=20 praising the attacks and denouncing the PLO for its criticism. They = argued=20 against peace with Israel and more violence.

The Likud desire to undermine Arafat remained = strong even=20 after Hamas had been declared a "terrorist organization" and the Labor = peace=20 initiative with Arafat was at its height. In the months after the White = House=20 peace signing, some leaders of the Israel's security forces pursued = contacts=20 with Hamas leaders who were in Israeli jails in the hopes of getting = them to=20 embrace peace at the expense of Arafat's leadership. The Israelis wanted = to use=20 Hamas as a means of pressuring Arafat into making more concessions. =

It didn't work.

Hamas and Likud = benefit from=20 violence

There is a natural affinity that exists in a = limited way=20 between the policies and goals of Hamas and the political objectives of = the=20 Likud Bloc that has brought them together.

Every time Israeli and Palestinian negotiators = appeared=20 ready to take a major step toward achieving peace, an act of Hamas = terrorism has=20 scuttled the peace process and has pushed the two sides = apart.

The startling ease with which terrorism has = undermined=20 peace is a testament to the fragility of the peace process and the = political=20 weakness of both Israeli and Palestinian negotiators. Two specific acts = of=20 Likud-inspired violence derailed the momentum of the peace process,=20 too.

Terrorism has been the primary common = denominator that=20 exists in the up and down relationship between the leadership of = Israel's Likud=20 and the Palestinian Hamas movement. It's not that they are working = together, but=20 that their goals are the same.

Acts of terrorism can be directly associated = with changes=20 in the political leadership of Israel -- influencing the defeat of Labor = Party=20 government and the rise of the Likud.

In the last quarter century, Likud Party = candidates have=20 served as Israel's prime ministers for 17 years, more than double the = eight=20 years served by Labor Party candidates.

Since 1977, four Likud candidates have served = five times=20 as prime minister, while three Labor candidates served four times. = (Likud's=20 Menachem Begin, 77-83; Likud's Yitzhak Shamir, 83-84; Labor's Shimon = Peres,=20 84-86; Likud's Shamir, 86-92; Labor's Yitzhak Rabin, 92-95; Labor's = Peres,=20 95-96; Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, 96-99; Labor's Ehud Barak, 99-01; = Likud's=20 Ariel Sharon, 01-present.)

Efforts to achieve peace between Arafat and = Labor were=20 marred by the violence on both sides with Hamas attacking Israeli = targets and=20 Likud loyalists and members of the pro-Likud settler movement attacking=20 Palestinians.

One of those likud-inspired settler fanatics was = Dr.=20 Baruch Goldstein. In February 1994, Goldstein strolled through Israeli = security=20 with an automatic weapon and opened fire on Muslims praying at the = Heborn=20 Mosque. He killed 29 Muslims. Goldstein took a page out of the Likud = ideology=20 and hoped the massacre would derail the peace process with Arafat. =

The Goldstein attack so outraged Hamas leaders = that they=20 retaliated in April 1994 with a Hamas bomber who drove an explosive = laden car=20 into a civilian bus in the Israeli city of Afula. Eight people died and = 50 were=20 wounded.

Likud-inspired violence was not reserved for = Palestinian=20 targets. Less than a year later, an Israeli fanatic inspired by Likud = rhetoric=20 assassinated Rabin. Rabin's widow, Leah Rabin, directly placed the blame = for her=20 husband's assassination on the Likud party and its anti-peace rhetoric. = Leah=20 Rabin declared that the assassin was incited to violence by the vicious = language=20 of Likud's silver-tongued leader, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Rabin's murder undermined the Labor Party's = future and=20 sabotaged the Israeli-Palestinian peace process pushing all sides back = to=20 violence.

In otherwords, violence did for the Likud what = violence=20 had achieved for Hamas in terms of stopping the peace = process.

Politically, Hamas and Israel's Likud Bloc share = several=20 common goals, each for different reasons. They both oppose the = Land-for-Peace=20 formula and object to the creation of an independent Palestinian State. = Hamas=20 seeks to establish an Islamic State in Palestine while the Likud seeks = the=20 formal expansion of Israel into the occupied West Bank and Arab East = Jerusalem.=20 Likud seeks to annex the territories providing the Palestinians with=20 administrative autonomy but not independence or sovereignty.

In contrast, the PLO and the Labor Party also = share=20 several goals and oppose the policies of Likud and Hamas. Both accepted = in=20 formal written agreements in September 1993 at the White House a peace = accord=20 that recognized Israel's right to exist and the Palestinian right to = statehood.=20

While Likud and Labor battle over ideology and = politics,=20 Hamas differs with the PLO on issues of religion and it rejects = compromise.=20

Hamas views the PLO as an important organization = but much=20 like a "wayward brother." It's stated goal is the creation of an Islamic = State=20 in Palestine, one that subjugates not only Jews but Christians and other = religions, too. The PLO has recognized Israel and, like the Labor Party, = has=20 accepted the Land-for-Peace principle.

While Hamas views all Israeli politics as = identical, its=20 violence twice helped elect Likud candidates to the office of Prime=20 Minister.

It is this politics of opposition that drives = Likud and=20 Hamas to share similar goals.

Arab regimes flipflop = on=20 Hamas

As peace moved forward, the Arab World also = shifted from=20 supporting the Islamic militant movement to opposing it.

The Muslim Brotherhood and later Hamas enjoyed = the=20 backing, for example, of King Hussein of Jordan and several other Arab=20 government leaders not just during its rise, but even years = later.

In Jan. 1991, the new Jordanian Government = included=20 members of the Moslem Brotherhood, insuring that Jordanian funds would = continue=20 to Hamas.

In a show of how important King Hussein viewed = the=20 religious organization, King Hussein pressured Israel to release Yassin = from his=20 Israeli prison in 1997. It was a price demanded by the monarch for his = freeing=20 of Israeli Mossad agents who were arrested after bungling the attempted=20 assassination of a Hamas leader in Jordan.

After his release, Yassin devoted his energies = to=20 repairing damage to Hamas' educational and charitable institutions = inflicted=20 during Israel's sweeping 1996 crackdown. Hamas' military wing directed = attacks=20 from its safe haven in Amman, Jordan.

Like many Arab leaders who viewed Arafat as a = threat, King=20 Hussein was willing to live with Hamas militancy as a counter-balance to = Arafat.=20 Jordan viewed Hamas as a natural rival to Arafat's leadership. Despite = his=20 public rhetoric, the Jordanian Monarch could never forgive Arafat for = his=20 efforts to destabilize his government. Half of Jordan's population = consisted of=20 Palestinians, most of them refugees from the 1948 and the 1967 = Arab-Israeli=20 wars.

As Hamas stepped up attacks against Israel and = was=20 denounced by Israelis as a terrorist organization, Hamas enjoyed growing = support=20 among the Arab regimes. Ironically, it was easier to show lipservice to = Hamas=20 than to lead their own wars against Israel.

Arafat's misunderstood support of Iraq during = the Gulf War=20 did much to strengthen Arab support of Hamas. Hamas received more = financial=20 support from Kuwait after Hamas leaders publicly denounced Saddam = Hussein and=20 likened the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait to the Israeli occupation of = Palestine.=20

Other Arab Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia = continued to=20 channel funds to both the PLO and Hamas, but favored Hamas' religious = militancy=20 and its Islamic charitable foundations and social service = agencies.

Arafat was publicly humiliated by Kuwait at the = 1990=20 "Baghdad summit" when he demanded to know why Kuwait had paid less than=20 one-eighth of the money it had promised the Palestinians. The emir of = Kuwait,=20 Sheikh Jabber al-Ahmed al-Sabah responded by producing data that showed = in fact=20 Kuwait had continued to support the Palestinian cause, but through Hamas = instead=20 of through the PLO.

As the Arab government's slowly supported the = Arafat-Rabin=20 peace accords, support for Hamas began to wane. Hamas turned elsewhere, = to=20 Iran's Islamic government. In August 1999, Jordan closed the group's = political=20 bureau, arrested its leaders and prohibited Hamas from operating out of = Jordan.=20

As the peace process progressed, Hamas influence = continued=20 to fall. Hamas struggled to sustain its network of charitable and social = agency=20 service agencies in the West Bank (notably Tulkarm) and also in Gaza = where they=20 had more support. Hamas shifted most of its military and political = leadership=20 from Amman, Jordan to a more sympathetic Damascus, Syria.

Still, the network that Shamir and the Likud = helped create=20 for Hamas preserved its funding resources. Even after breaking with = Jordan and=20 other Arab countries, sources estimated the Hamas budget at between = $40-70=20 million a year.

The peace process = teeters on the=20 brink of Hamas attacks

In early April 1990, Palestine National Council = Chairman=20 Sheikh Abdel Hamid a-Sayeh invited Hamas to join a committee preparing = the next=20 Palestine National Council meeting. (The PNC was the umbrella group that = included representatives of most Palestinian organizations and mainly = the PLO.)=20 Hamas circulated a memorandum in the territories on April 6, 1990 = setting for=20 the conditions the PLO would have to meet: Hamas would only join the = Palestine=20 National Council if the PLO withdrew its "acceptance of partition," = rejects=20 territorial concessions, and refuses to recognize Israel. The statement = also=20 demanded that Hamas be given up to 50 percent of the PNC seats, and a=20 modification of the Palestinian National Covenant "in accordance with = the faith=20 of the Moslem Palestinian people and its glorious heritage."

Even President Clinton recognized the ability of = Hamas to=20 disrupt the peace process. On January 24, 1995, Clinton signed an = Executive=20 Order prohibiting transactions with Hamas due to their potential for = disrupting=20 the Middle East peace process. This included all of Hamas' subgroups = including=20 the Izzedin Al-Qassem Brigades. Even with the change in attitudes of the = Arab=20 governments, pressure from the Clinton Administration and a reversal in = Israel's=20 policies toward Yassin, the road to undermining Hamas' extensive funding = network=20 was difficult.

Eventually, Hamas was forced to consider, at = least=20 briefly, a possible compromise with Arafat in order to survive. By 1998, = Yassin=20 publicly broke from the Hamas Charter and participated at a meeting of = the PNC.=20 His presence prevented the PNA from declaring Palestinian statehood, but = it=20 brought a harsh rebuke from the Hamas leadership outside of the = territories.=20 Hamas political head Khaled Meshal and treasurer Musa Abu Marzook, both = in=20 Jordan, and Hamas' Damascus representative Imad Alami all urged Yassin = to=20 resign.

As peace falters Hamas = influence=20 rises

Support for Hamas declines as the peace process = moves=20 ahead and increases as the peace process falters. Prior to the peace = process,=20 support among the Palestinians for Hamas was estimated by the Israelis = at 20-40=20 percent in the West Bank and 60-80 percent in the Gaza Strip. This fell = to 15-25=20 percent during the peace process.

And undermining the peace process has always = been the real=20 target of Hamas and has played into the political ambitions of the = Likud.=20 Continued Hamas suicide bombings and violence has played a significant = role in=20 undermining and bringing the peace process to a grinding halt, and set = the stage=20 for Sharon's election over Labor Party leader Ehud Barak in = 2001.

As the peace accords lumbered ahead, Hamas = stepped up its=20 terrorist suicide attacks. About a dozen suicide bombings were attempted = in the=20 months after the PLO-Israel accord was signed at the White House in = September,=20 1993.

Initially, the peace process persisted in the = face of=20 these heinous terrorist attacks. But it couldn't stand the pressure of = the=20 gut-wrenching images of suicide bomb attacks. In February and March = 1996, Hamas=20 launched a series of suicide bombings in retaliation for the Israeli=20 assassination of alleged Hamas bomb-maker Yahya Aiyash the month prior. = These=20 attacks contributed mightily to bringing down the Peres government and = helped=20 return the Likud back to power electing the more hardline but = silver-tongued=20 young Turk, Benjamin Netanyahu.

The wave of deadly Hamas bombings took 60 = Israeli lives in=20 eight days, prompting Arafat to clamp down on Hamas even more - some = 1,000=20 Palestinians were arrested and Arafat's Palestinian National Authority=20 government, established under Labor, even ousted Hamas from some of its = mosques.=20 The suicide attacks continued through 1997 giving Netanyahu public = support to=20 halt the peace process and reverse agreements made by the murdered=20 Rabin.

Netanyahu ignored Arafat's efforts to crackdown = on Hamas=20 and the peace process came to a grinding halt.

Similarly, Hamas suicide bombings during the = Barak=20 administration coupled with the failure to reach a peace accord on = President=20 Clinton's timetable, and Sharon's provocative incursion to the "Temple = Mount" on=20 September 28th, 2000 provoked the second Intifadah.

Although the Israelis insist that second = Intifadah was=20 responsible for a wave of Israeli killings, during the first week of the = conflict, 50 Palestinians had been killed and five Israelis had died. = Among the=20 dead were nine Palestinian protesters whose deaths sparked the = Intifadah's=20 start. The Israeli response was repressive and heightened Palestinian = response.=20 And, when two Israeli reservists (suspected of being undercover = government=20 assassins) were captured and murdered viciously in Ramallah on October = 12th,=20 2000, the slide to total Palestinian-Israeli conflict was already set in = stone.

Barak declared his decision to resign to give = himself a=20 60-day window before elections to controlt he conflict and authorized = secret=20 meetings at Taba where Palestinian and Israeli negotiators desperately = tried to=20 reach an accord.

But, it was too late, Sharon had achieved his = objectives.=20 Sharon did not need a major Hamas suicide bombing to win his election = against=20 Barak. The Sharon inspired Intifadah and the violence it caused on both = sides=20 swung Israeli voters to the hard right, giving him a landslide victory = against=20 Barak on Feb. 7, 2001.

Clearly recognizing that their violent strategy = was=20 bringing down the Arafat government, halting the peace process and = playing into=20 the emotions of the Palestinians, Hamas launched another wave of suicide = bombings in the week after Sharon's election. Sharon used these attacks = as the=20 pretext to launch a massive invasion of PNA controlled areas of the West = Bank=20 and decimating Arafat's government infrastructure.

Hamas terrorism played into the rage and the = frustrations=20 of the Palestinian people, who helplessly watched as the promise of = peace=20 evaporated before their eyes. They had never tasted its fruits but only = heard=20 its empty promises. The were a people on the edge and easy victims for = Sharon's=20 political manipulations.

The conflict continues its escalation. The = number of=20 Palestinian and Israeli dead continues to climb. The terrorist attacks = on=20 September 11th by madman Osama Bin Laden in the name of Islam only = served to=20 further build a barrier that prevents reasonable people to achieve a=20 peace.

And, once again, the real benefactor of the = violence and=20 conflict is Israel's right wing Likud Bloc and its new leader, Ariel = Sharon, the=20 man that his fanatic supporters affectionately call = "Bulldozer."

Ray Hanania = is a=20 Palestinian American author and veteran award winning journalist. Based = on=20 Chicago, he is a columnist on Middle East affairs for Creators = Syndicate. He can=20 be reached at www.hanania.com

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Gary = Acheatel
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:14 AM
Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions

If you were the head of Israel, what = would you do=20 to bring about peace.
 
Here are the = circumstances.
 
    a. Hamas is the = elected=20 govt. 
 
    b. Hamas does not = disavow=20 terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to exist. Neither does=20 Fatah!
 
 Do you return to some arbitrary = 67 borders=20 and give back the territory that now protects your population centers = that your=20 enemies previously attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn = enemies, desiring your death and not preventing maniacal=20 terrorists?
 
What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. = You want=20 peace. Please answer in the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do = because that=20 is too easy theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children = getting blown=20 up on buses on the way to day camp.  Granted also you want = Palestinian=20 justice.
 
Gary

_______________________________________________
Pgp-middle-east= =20 mailing=20 list
Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org
http://list.pacificgree= ns.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C69DBB.74F24F00-- From frank1957nieves@gmail.com Sun Jul 2 10:49:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id EE47D45BE for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.593 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.592, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id EZacLsvRAPzk for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.230]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 22A68408A for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i12so767552wra for ; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:from:to:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=EKB34RSHn2wNJsTSVv521/1oFHvZ0qKAUB7zDu2OrZ6iPO65ltGEfn1bY0kOCp920B91KC1JdXv95aU89oZSdRvwk77I/mFRWuJfROuqUFgS1Ei9NHlOr4sB/lKEhPUtABsHb+/o9Fnki43MJM9ycuC4WdJFX2CgLwUiTovX8/o= Received: by 10.54.97.6 with SMTP id u6mr390821wrb; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frankr9udq0gjw ( [172.194.133.93]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 12sm1612548wrl.2006.07.02.10.49.22; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00d101c69dff$d8a80870$5d85c2ac@frankr9udq0gjw> From: "Frank Nieves" To: Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:49:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C69DC5.2989C250" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 21:24:42 -0700 Cc: Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] A center of tolerance, pluralism and humanity X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 17:49:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C69DC5.2989C250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The World Pride event will take place in Jerusalem because we believe = Jerusalem should be a center of tolerance, pluralism and humanity," -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Jewish, Muslim and Christian leaders in Jerusalem rarely see eye to eye, = much less sit down at the same table. But they joined efforts in a = historic press conference in 2005 to condemn plans to hold World Pride = in the city all three faiths consider holy. (Photo by Brennan = Linsley/AP) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 WORLD NEWS | washingtonblade.com World Pride's Jerusalem plans spark outrage=20 Some fear gay march could trigger riots By LOU CHIBBARO JR=20 Jun. 30, 2006 Jewish and Muslim religious leaders say that an international Gay Pride = gathering set for Aug. 6-12 in Jerusalem could trigger a worldwide = Islamic uprising more intense than the riots and bloodshed generated by = the cartoons in European newspapers of the profit Mohammed. Representatives of conservative Christian groups joined Muslim and = Orthodox Jewish leaders last week in demanding that organizers of World = Pride Jerusalem cancel a series of planned Gay Pride events, including a = march through Jerusalem's streets. "We are faced with the prospect of six days of promiscuity and = debauchery unparalleled in the Middle East," said American Rabbi Yehuda = Levin at a June 21 news conference in Jerusalem. Organizers of World Pride Jerusalem call these predictions scare tactics = aimed at discouraging people from attending. They point to the domestic = Israeli Gay Pride marches that have taken place in Jerusalem during the = past four years, with no organized violence or backlash developing from = Islamic or other religious groups. The U.S. State Department has long warned Americans about the risks of = travel to the occupied West Bank, which includes Jerusalem. The State = Department "urges U.S. citizens to carefully weigh the necessity of = their travel to Israel, . and defer unnecessary travel to the West = Bank."=20 In particular, American tourists are warned about "the potential for = violent protests, kidnappings, including of foreign nationals, and = fighting between various armed factions." The travel warning urges Americans to "remain vigilant" if traveling = within Jerusalem due to reports of planned terrorist strikes there.=20 "In addition," the State Department warns, "American citizens should = stay away from demonstrations and generally avoid crowded public = places." The World Pride event had originally been scheduled to take place in = Jerusalem last year. Organizers agreed to postpone the event for one = year at the request of the Israeli government, which was in the midst of = withdrawing its forces from the Palestinian run Gaza Strip. The battle over holding World Pride in Jerusalem isn't the first pitting = the event's organizers against religious leaders. The 2000 World Pride = was scheduled in Rome during the year-long Catholic celebration of the = Christian millennium. Opponents say an international gay march this year would be especially = provocative to Jerusalem's Jewish, Christian, and Muslim residents, who = view the city as a sacred and holy territory for each of their religious = faiths. The Jerusalem Post reported that a public opinion poll conducted last = year found that 75 percent of Jerusalem residents responding opposed = having an international gay march in their city, with just 25 percent of = those polled saying they support it. Worldwide opposition Jerusalem, a city occupied like the rest of the West Bank by Israel, is = governed by Mayor Uri Lupolianski, an Orthodox Jew who has expressed = strong opposition to the march and signed a petition calling for the = Israeli national government to ban the gay events. Levin, a New Yorker who founded the U.S. based Jews for Morality, urged = Christian and Muslim leaders in the U.S. and Middle East to call on the = Israeli government to take steps to block the gay events from taking = place in Jerusalem. David Saranga, a spokesperson for the Israeli Consular Office in New = York City, said the Israeli government has no plans to interfere with = the planned gay rights march. He said Israeli police and security = agencies would provide the gay events the same routine protection given = to all political demonstrations and public events. "The Israeli government treats all of its communities equally," Saranga = said. "We have respect for tolerance and pluralism," he said.=20 Organizers of World Pride Jerusalem issued a statement on June 27 saying = the events would go forward as planned. "The World Pride event will take place in Jerusalem because we believe = Jerusalem should be a center of tolerance, pluralism and humanity," the = Jerusalem Post quoted Noa Sattath, board chair of Jerusalem Open House, = the city's gay community center, as saying. The center is one of the hosts and lead organizers of World Pride = Jerusalem, which will include religious services, meetings, a film = festival and other events. "Unfortunately, there are those who prefer Jerusalem to be fanatical, = dark, pursuing strife and hatred," the newspaper quoted Sattath as = saying. Hagai El-Ad, the Jerusalem Open House's executive director, said in a = phone interview that thousands have participated in Gay Pride marches in = Jerusalem since 2002. The 2005 march attracted 10,000 participants, he = said. He said that while conservative religious leaders voiced strong = opposition to the marches, none of the "nightmares" opponents are = predicting for this year's event occurred as a result of the past = marches. "They are using scare tactics to stop this from happening," said El-Ad. At last year's march, a bystander stabbed one of the marchers and later = told authorities he was carrying out God's will, according to media = reports at the time. The assailant was tried and convicted. Jerusalem has played a central and historic role in the development of = Judaism, Christianity and Islam for more than 2,000 years, and many = leaders of the three religious faiths consider the city holy and sacred = to their beliefs. During the Jerusalem news conference organized by Levin, Israeli Rabbi = Menachem Froman, an expert on Jewish-Arab relations, said a Gay Pride = march through the streets of Jerusalem this year could provoke = conservative Muslims throughout the Middle East to rise up in anger. "In their eyes, the parade is part of a whole chapter where Israel = brings the defilement of the United States and the West into the holy = land and Jerusalem," he said. "And they react to it with bloodshed." Levin said he was not advocating violence. But his statement at the news = conference that he and others would defend Jerusalem "with our bodies = and our souls" against a gay march prompted the head of a gay Jewish = group in New York City to accuse him of provoking violence against gays. 'Despicable, dangerous' comments Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum of Congregation Beth Simchat Torah in Manhattan, = which bills itself as the "largest LGBT and allied synagogue in the = world," said Levin was using religion as a "weapon" for bigotry. "He blasphemes God's name when he says that Jerusalem does not belong to = all of us," Kleinbaum said. "His comments, along with those of two = leading Muslim religious leaders, Sheikh Taysir al-Tamimi and Sheikh = Hamad Bitawi, clearly and bluntly advocated violence against LGBT people = and are despicable and dangerous." Al-Tamimi and Bitawi are considered prominent Palestinian religious = leaders. The two spoke to the conference by phone hookup after Israeli = authorities denied them permission to enter Jerusalem. Another prominent religious leader, Sheikh Ibrhim Sarsur, an = Arab-Israeli member of the Israeli Knesset, or parliament, said that if = the Gay Pride participants "dare to approach" Jerusalem's historic = Temple Mount during the parade, "they will do so over our dead bodies." El-Ad, the Jerusalem gay community center leader, said the previous Gay = Pride marches in Jerusalem did not go anywhere near the Temple Mount, an = important religious shrine, and that opponents of the events this year = should know the temple is nowhere near the march route. "There has always been a lot of threats and rhetoric, but this event has = taken place annually since 2002," El-Ad said.=20 He said organizers have yet to complete negotiations with Jerusalem = authorities over the final plans for the route of this year's march. = According to El-Ad, it will take place in the central part of the city = in a "dignified" and "respectful" manner. He described as "completely untrue" claims by Levin that nudity and = "pornography" would be a part of the march. "This will be the fifth consecutive year we have had a march, and anyone = who has seen it knows we do not do those things," El-Ad said. Kleinbaum is among a group of American gay rights advocates who are = scheduled to attend the World Pride Jerusalem events. Others expected to = attend are Rev. Troy Perry, founder of the U.S. Metropolitan Community = Churches; Rev. Mel White, author and founder of the gay religious = advocacy group Soulforce; gay rights attorney Evan Wolfson, executive = director of Freedom to Marry, which advocates for legal recognition of = same-sex marriage; and gay rights attorney Chai Feldblum, a Georgetown = University Law School professor. In addition to the march and a rally, World Pride Jerusalem events will = include conferences and interfaith religious services and LGBT Health = Day, Youth Day, and Human Rights Day events. An international gay film = festival and social gatherings at gay bars and clubs also are planned. Organizers said a "Solidarity Rally" would be held at the site of the = Jerusalem Separation Wall, which marks the division between the city's = Jewish and Palestinian sections. Israeli authorities are in the process = of building the wall as part of a controversial effort to prevent = suicide bombers from entering Israel. "Holding World Pride Jerusalem - the city at the heart of the = Israeli-Palestinian conflict - is a significant opportunity for our = diverse community to raise a different voice, a voice for progressive = moral values, inclusion, and pluralism," a statement on the World Pride = website says. Leaders of Al-Fatiha, an international gay Islamic group, could not be = reached for comment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =A9 2006 The Washington Blade | A Window Media Publication http://www.washblade.com/2006/6-30/news/worldnews/worldpride.cfm ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C69DC5.2989C250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=93The World Pride event will take place in Jerusalem because we = believe=20 Jerusalem should be a center of tolerance, pluralism and = humanity,=94
 
Jewish, Muslim and Christian leaders in = Jerusalem=20 rarely see eye to eye, much less sit down at the same table. But they = joined=20 efforts in a historic press conference in 2005 to condemn plans to hold = World=20 Pride in the city all three faiths consider holy. (Photo by Brennan=20 Linsley/AP)
 

WORLD NEWS | washingtonblade.com

World Pride=92s Jerusalem plans spark = outrage=20
Some fear gay march could = trigger=20 riots

By LOU CHIBBARO JR
Jun. 30, 2006

Jewish and Muslim religious leaders say that an = international=20 Gay Pride gathering set for Aug. 6-12 in Jerusalem could trigger a = worldwide=20 Islamic uprising more intense than the riots and bloodshed generated by = the=20 cartoons in European newspapers of the profit Mohammed.

Representatives of conservative Christian groups = joined=20 Muslim and Orthodox Jewish leaders last week in demanding that = organizers of=20 World Pride Jerusalem cancel a series of planned Gay Pride events, = including a=20 march through Jerusalem=92s streets.

 =93We are faced with the prospect of six days = of=20 promiscuity and debauchery unparalleled in the Middle East,=94 said = American Rabbi=20 Yehuda Levin at a June 21 news conference in Jerusalem.

Organizers of World Pride Jerusalem call these = predictions=20 scare tactics aimed at discouraging people from attending. They point to = the=20 domestic Israeli Gay Pride marches that have taken place in Jerusalem = during the=20 past four years, with no organized violence or backlash developing from = Islamic=20 or other religious groups.

The U.S. State Department has long warned Americans = about the=20 risks of travel to the occupied West Bank, which includes Jerusalem. The = State=20 Department =93urges U.S. citizens to carefully weigh the necessity of = their travel=20 to Israel, =85 and defer unnecessary travel to the West Bank.=94

In particular, American tourists are warned about = =93the=20 potential for violent protests, kidnappings, including of foreign = nationals, and=20 fighting between various armed factions.=94

The travel warning urges Americans to =93remain = vigilant=94 if=20 traveling within Jerusalem due to reports of planned terrorist strikes = there.=20

=93In addition,=94 the State Department warns, = =93American citizens=20 should stay away from demonstrations and generally avoid crowded public=20 places.=94

The World Pride event had originally been scheduled = to take=20 place in Jerusalem last year. Organizers agreed to postpone the event = for one=20 year at the request of the Israeli government, which was in the midst of = withdrawing its forces from the Palestinian run Gaza Strip.

The battle over holding World Pride in Jerusalem = isn=92t the=20 first pitting the event=92s organizers against religious leaders. The = 2000 World=20 Pride was scheduled in Rome during the year-long Catholic celebration of = the=20 Christian millennium.

Opponents say an international gay march this year = would be=20 especially provocative to Jerusalem=92s Jewish, Christian, and Muslim = residents,=20 who view the city as a sacred and holy territory for each of their = religious=20 faiths.

The Jerusalem Post reported that a public opinion = poll=20 conducted last year found that 75 percent of Jerusalem residents = responding=20 opposed having an international gay march in their city, with just 25 = percent of=20 those polled saying they support it.

Worldwide opposition

Jerusalem, a city occupied like the rest of the = West Bank by=20 Israel, is governed by Mayor Uri Lupolianski, an Orthodox Jew who has = expressed=20 strong opposition to the march and signed a petition calling for the = Israeli=20 national government to ban the gay events.

Levin, a New Yorker who founded the U.S. based Jews = for=20 Morality, urged Christian and Muslim leaders in the U.S. and Middle East = to call=20 on the Israeli government to take steps to block the gay events from = taking=20 place in Jerusalem.

David Saranga, a spokesperson for the Israeli = Consular Office=20 in New York City, said the Israeli government has no plans to interfere = with the=20 planned gay rights march. He said Israeli police and security agencies = would=20 provide the gay events the same routine protection given to all = political=20 demonstrations and public events.

=93The Israeli government treats all of its = communities=20 equally,=94 Saranga said. =93We have respect for tolerance and = pluralism,=94 he said.=20

Organizers of World Pride Jerusalem issued a = statement on=20 June 27 saying the events would go forward as planned.

=93The World Pride event will take place in = Jerusalem because=20 we believe Jerusalem should be a center of tolerance, pluralism and = humanity,=94=20 the Jerusalem Post quoted Noa Sattath, board chair of Jerusalem Open = House, the=20 city=92s gay community center, as saying.

The center is one of the hosts and lead organizers = of World=20 Pride Jerusalem, which will include religious services, meetings, a film = festival and other events.

=93Unfortunately, there are those who prefer = Jerusalem to be=20 fanatical, dark, pursuing strife and hatred,=94 the newspaper quoted = Sattath as=20 saying.

Hagai El-Ad, the Jerusalem Open House=92s executive = director,=20 said in a phone interview that thousands have participated in Gay Pride = marches=20 in Jerusalem since 2002. The 2005 march attracted 10,000 participants, = he=20 said.

He said that while conservative religious leaders = voiced=20 strong opposition to the marches, none of the =93nightmares=94 opponents = are=20 predicting for this year=92s event occurred as a result of the past = marches.

=93They are using scare tactics to stop this from = happening,=94=20 said El-Ad.

At last year=92s march, a bystander stabbed one of = the marchers=20 and later told authorities he was carrying out God=92s will, according = to media=20 reports at the time. The assailant was tried and convicted.

Jerusalem has played a central and historic role in = the=20 development of Judaism, Christianity and Islam for more than 2,000 = years, and=20 many leaders of the three religious faiths consider the city holy and = sacred to=20 their beliefs.

During the Jerusalem news conference organized by = Levin,=20 Israeli Rabbi Menachem Froman, an expert on Jewish-Arab relations, said = a Gay=20 Pride march through the streets of Jerusalem this year could provoke=20 conservative Muslims throughout the Middle East to rise up in anger.

=93In their eyes, the parade is part of a whole = chapter where=20 Israel brings the defilement of the United States and the West into the = holy=20 land and Jerusalem,=94 he said. =93And they react to it with = bloodshed.=94

Levin said he was not advocating violence. But his = statement=20 at the news conference that he and others would defend Jerusalem =93with = our=20 bodies and our souls=94 against a gay march prompted the head of a gay = Jewish=20 group in New York City to accuse him of provoking violence against = gays.

=91Despicable, dangerous=92 = comments

Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum of Congregation Beth Simchat = Torah in=20 Manhattan, which bills itself as the =93largest LGBT and allied = synagogue in the=20 world,=94 said Levin was using religion as a =93weapon=94 for = bigotry.

=93He blasphemes God=92s name when he says that = Jerusalem does=20 not belong to all of us,=94 Kleinbaum said. =93His comments, along with = those of two=20 leading Muslim religious leaders, Sheikh Taysir al-Tamimi and Sheikh = Hamad=20 Bitawi, clearly and bluntly advocated violence against LGBT people and = are=20 despicable and dangerous.=94

Al-Tamimi and Bitawi are considered prominent = Palestinian=20 religious leaders. The two spoke to the conference by phone hookup after = Israeli=20 authorities denied them permission to enter Jerusalem.

Another prominent religious leader, Sheikh Ibrhim = Sarsur, an=20 Arab-Israeli member of the Israeli Knesset, or parliament, said that if = the Gay=20 Pride participants =93dare to approach=94 Jerusalem=92s historic Temple = Mount during=20 the parade, =93they will do so over our dead bodies.=94

El-Ad, the Jerusalem gay community center leader, = said the=20 previous Gay Pride marches in Jerusalem did not go anywhere near the = Temple=20 Mount, an important religious shrine, and that opponents of the events = this year=20 should know the temple is nowhere near the march route.

=93There has always been a lot of threats and = rhetoric, but=20 this event has taken place annually since 2002,=94 El-Ad said.

He said organizers have yet to complete = negotiations with=20 Jerusalem authorities over the final plans for the route of this = year=92s march.=20 According to El-Ad, it will take place in the central part of the city = in a=20 =93dignified=94 and =93respectful=94 manner.

He described as =93completely untrue=94 claims by = Levin that=20 nudity and =93pornography=94 would be a part of the march.

=93This will be the fifth consecutive year we have = had a march,=20 and anyone who has seen it knows we do not do those things,=94 El-Ad = said.

Kleinbaum is among a group of American gay rights = advocates=20 who are scheduled to attend the World Pride Jerusalem events. Others = expected to=20 attend are Rev. Troy Perry, founder of the U.S. Metropolitan Community = Churches;=20 Rev. Mel White, author and founder of the gay religious advocacy group=20 Soulforce; gay rights attorney Evan Wolfson, executive director of = Freedom to=20 Marry, which advocates for legal recognition of same-sex marriage; and = gay=20 rights attorney Chai Feldblum, a Georgetown University Law School = professor.

In addition to the march and a rally, World Pride = Jerusalem=20 events will include conferences and interfaith religious services and = LGBT=20 Health Day, Youth Day, and Human Rights Day events. An international gay = film=20 festival and social gatherings at gay bars and clubs also are = planned.

Organizers said a =93Solidarity Rally=94 would be = held at the=20 site of the Jerusalem Separation Wall, which marks the division between = the=20 city=92s Jewish and Palestinian sections. Israeli authorities are in the = process=20 of building the wall as part of a controversial effort to prevent = suicide=20 bombers from entering Israel.

=93Holding World Pride Jerusalem =97 the = city at the=20 heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict =97 is a significant = opportunity for our diverse community to raise a different voice, a = voice for=20 progressive moral values, inclusion, and pluralism,=94 a statement on = the World=20 Pride website says.

Leaders of Al-Fatiha, an international gay Islamic = group,=20 could not be reached for comment.

=A9 2006 The Washington Blade | A Window Media=20 Publication

 
 
http://www.washblade.com/2006/6-30/news/worldnews/worldpride.cfm
 ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C69DC5.2989C250-- From Frank1957@netscape.com Sun Jul 2 22:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id CDFF8469D; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 2.895 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.895 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.536, BAYES_50=0.001, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=1.091, HTML_10_20=1.351, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_ADULT2=0.987] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 2Bgqr2P1rFvA; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta14.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 32BA0408A; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm17.mta.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta14.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31E240377; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:44:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Eon-Dm: dm17 Received: by dm17.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY2 - acc2cbb2) id dm17.449acf96.1b8bc2; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:43:28 -0700 X-Eon-Sig: AQI2kv5EqK6ABvk5qAIAAADP,7cdf9d2879daeaf2f4d0b4801539a13a Message-ID: <002001c69e63$9a7d6d60$b2cbc2ac@frankr9udq0gjw> From: "Frank Nieves" To: <"Undisclosed-Recipient:;>"@NONE.mta.everyone.net> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:42:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C69E28.D1896240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 05:57:26 -0700 Cc: Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] Traditional Independence Holiday X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 05:44:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C69E28.D1896240 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C69E28.D1896240" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C69E28.D1896240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Happy Self-Determination Day How happy is it? Every year, year after year after year, during the Independence holiday, = The Forth of July, I think of the utter hypocrisy America has become. = Constantly, they complain on about freedom-on and on about our freedom, = on and on about family values, our capitalistic system, and deeply = religious way of life. Yet, each year, during the climax of concerts = and fireworks, we hear one of the most famous, most inspirational and = beloved pieces, and truly an all-American tradition during festivities. = The Russian music Tchaikovsky's Overture solennelle "1812," Op. 492 is = American as apple pie. Nonetheless, it is Russian music. What do we = know of this all-American music? Who is the composer-shall we have a = closer look? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Gay Love-Letters from Tchaikovsky to his Nephew Bob Davidov Gay men have taken to their hearts the music of Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky = (1840-93) because it is perceived (rightly or wrongly) to contain all = the longing and despair of homosexual angst in a homophobic world. = Although he was one of the great musical thinkers, it is for the melodic = lyricism and suffering so audible in his work, rather than its = complexity or brilliance, that he will be remembered. Tchaikovsky's homosexuality was denied by Soviet musicologists until = fairly recently, and much material still remains to be retrieved from = Russian archives and published in English. His lovers included Alexey = Apukhtin in his music student days 1867-70; Vladimir Shilovsky, a = wealthy young lad whom he also met at the Moscow Conservatory, during = 1868-72, and who financed several trips for the two of them; Alexei = Sofronov his valet from 1872 to the end of his life; his pupil Eduard = Zak, who killed himself in 1873 (he inspired the Romeo and Juliet = Fantasy Overture); Joseph Kotek in the mid-1870s; his nephew Vladimir = Davidov (second son of his sister Alexandra) in the 1880s-1890s, to whom = he dedicated the Symphonie Path=E9tique (1893); and the young pianist = Vassily Sapelnikov who went with him on a tour to Germany, France and = England. In addition, many brief affairs are recorded in his = cryptographic diary; e.g. on March 22, 1889 he records that a 'Negro = came in to me', to his hotel room in Paris.=20 But Tchaikovsky was uneasy about his sexuality - unlike his brother = Modest, who was also gay, and who lived relatively openly with his = boyfriend Nikolai ('Kolia') Hermanovich Konradi (1868-1923), a deaf and = dumb boy whom Modest tutored and with whom he lived for about seventeen = years from 1876. During a mid-life crisis at the age of thirty-six, = Piotr wrote to his brother: I am now going through a very critical period of my life. I will go = into more detail later, but for now I will simply tell you, I have = decided to get married. It is unavoidable. I must do it, not just for = myself but for you, Modeste, and all those I love. I think that for both = of us our dispositions are the greatest and most insuperable obstacle to = happiness, and we must fight our natures to the best of our ability. So = far as I am concerned, I will do my utmost to get married this year, and = if I lack the necessary courage, I will at any rate abandon my habits = forever. Surely you realize how painful it is for me to know that people = pity and forgive me when in truth I am not guilty of anything. How = appalling to think that those who love me are sometimes ashamed of me. = In short, I seek marriage or some sort of public involvement with a = woman so as to shut the mouths of assorted contemptible creatures whose = opinions mean nothing to me, but who are in a position to cause distress = to those near to me. Tchaikovsky married Antonina Milyukova in 1877, but frankly told his = wife he did not love her though he would be her devoted friend. Not = surprisingly, the marriage ended disastrously after a few months, which = brought Tchaikovsky close to a nervous breakdown and helped him accept = his unchangable sexual nature and stop tormenting himself.=20 It is possible that Tchaikovsky married Milyukova 'on the rebound' after = being rejected by some male lover. At the time, he was busy composing = Tatiana's Letter Scene in his opera Eugene Onegin. He very clearly = identified with Tatiana, who had been rejected by her lover Onegin. He = had recently responded to a letter from Milyukova and had agreed to meet = with her, but he pointedly notes in a letter to his brother Modest that = he had entirely forgotten about Milyukova when working on his opera: I didn't ask any more about Mlle Milyukova. I was entirely preoccupied = at the time with thoughts about Eugene Onegin, i.e. with Tatiana whose = letter had originally drawn me to composing the opera. I began writing = the letter song, driven to the work by an irresistible emotional need, = in the heat of which I not only forgot about Antonina Milyukova, but = even lost her letter or hid it so successfully that I couldn't find it. = I remembered about it only when a little later I received the second = one. I was completely buried in my composition and had grown so close to = the character of Tatiana that she and all around her started to seem = real to me. I loved Tatiana and was terribly angry with Onegin, whom I = saw as simply cold and heartless. When I received the second letter, I = was ashamed, and even came to hate myself for my attitude toward Mlle = Milyukova. In this second letter she bitterly complained that she had = not received a reply, adding that if the second letter met with the same = fate as the first, the only course open to her was to take her own life. = In my mind this all got associated with my conception of Tatiana, and it = seemed to me as if I myself had behaved infinitely worse than Onegin. But when he finally met Milyukova, the first thing he told her was 'I = could not return her love'. It is clear that the heart-rending Letter = Scene was not inspired by Milyukova, but that his identification with = Tatiania compelled him to agree to marry Milyukova, for fear of being as = heartless as Onegin. Thus his identification with a female paradoxically = made him temporarily reject his desires for a male, or, rather, his = desire to be desired by a man like Onegin. Vladimir Lvovich Dav=EFdov (1871/2-1906) - Tchaikovsky's nephew = nicknamed 'Bob' [illustrated at the right] - became his lover from the = late 1880s. Tchaikovsky was always homesick during his musical tours = abroad - he hated the loneliness of large cities - and he always longed = to get back home to be with his beloved nephew - 'my idol' - whom he = made his heir. His letter to Bob from a hotel room in London in May 1893 = shows this correspondence to have been his life-line: 'I am writing to = you with a voluptuous pleasure. The thought that this paper is going to = be in your hands fills me with joy and brings tears to my eyes.' Later = that year 'Kolia' chucked out Modest, and there were plans to set up an = apartment in St Petersburg where Modest, Piotr and Bob would live = together.=20 But it was not to be, for in November 1893, less than a month after the = premiere of the Symphonie Path=E9tique, Tchaikovsky was murdered. It was = reported that he died from cholera, caused by drinking an unboiled glass = of water. On November 1 (New Style; the Russian Old Style calendar was = twelve days behind this) he dined at a restaurant with Bob after seeing = a play, and insisted on being brought a glass of water even though it = was unboiled and even though his friends remonstrated with him. (Another = version has it that he ran to the kitchen in Modest's apartment to get = the unboiled water, shouting 'Who cares anyway!') On November 2 he fell = ill, and on November 6 he was dead, from kidney failure and dehydration = caused by vomiting and diarrhoea. But death from cholera cannot possibly = occur so soon after an infection, and even Rimsky-Korsakov, who paid his = respects to the composer's body in Modest's apartment, thought it was = strange that the apartment had not been disinfected and that people were = even allowed to kiss the corpse despite government regulations that = required that the coffin be sealed in cases of cholera. Rumors of = suicide began to fly. In the 1920s one of the doctors who attended him, = Vasily Bertenson, admitted that Tchaikovsky had poisoned himself.=20 The facts of Tchaikovsky's death were revealed to the West by Alexandra = Orlova, a Soviet musical scholar who emigrated to the USA in 1979. It = was privately known in Soviet musical circles in the 1920s and 1930s = (including people such as Alexander Glazunov) that Tchaikovsky had not = died of cholera, but had killed himself. In 1966 Alexander Voitov, a = pupil and historian of the St Petersburg School of Jurisprudence, told = Orlova what really happened. In 1913 he was told by the widow of Nikolay = Jacobi that she had a terrible secret she did not wish to take to the = grave. In autumn 1893 Duke Stenbok-Fermor wrote a letter addressed to = Tsar Alexander III complaining of the attentions the composer was paying = his (the Duke's) young nephew; this letter was handed to the civil = servant Jacobi to pass on to the Tsar. Exposure would have meant loss of = civil rights and exile to Siberia, and public disgrace not only for = Tchaikovsky, but for his fellow former students of the School of = Jurisprudence. Instead of passing on the letter, Jacobi assembled a = court of honor of the old boys of the school and summoned Tchaikovsky to = his apartment. Jacobi's wife could hear loud voices behind the closed = door, and after a meeting that lasted five hours Tchaikovsky ran = unsteadily from the room, very white and agitated. When the others had = gone Jacobi told his wife that the court of honor had required = Tchaikovsky to kill himself and he had promised to comply with their = demand. A day or two later his illness was reported. Nataliya = Kuznetsova-Fladimova, the granddaughter of the sister of the wife of = Tchaikovsky's eldest brother Nikolay, after reading Orlova's account in = 1987, told her that the story was true, and was the same story told by = her grandmother who died very old in 1955. Her grandmother also said = that Tsar Alexander III was shown the incriminating letter to Count = Stenbok after Tchaikovsky's death. The prominence given to the supposedly infected glass of water shows it = to have been a symbolic leave-taking; the major Tchaikovsky biographer = David Brown calls it 'a very public demonstration of something = happening, to give an explanation for something that was going to happen = in due course.' Tchaikovsky's most recent biographer Alexander Poznansky = rejects the court of honor story because he does not believe such things = could happen in the civilized society that Russia was at this time. = Poznansky even points out that there were other homosexuals in the = School of Jurisprudence, such as the statesman Vladimir Meshesvsky, who = was protected by the Tsar after being denounced for seducing a bugle boy = in the imperial marching band, However, trying to seduce the son of = Count Stenbok might well have been considered more reprehensible and = damaging to the public image of the School. In any event, the historian = Simon Karlinsky has proved that courts of honor did in fact exist at the = time (though usually they only demanded resignations etc., as when = Chekhov's editor was called to a court of honor). Karlinsky acknowledges = that the Russian law against homosexuality - more specifically, = Paragraph 995 which prohibited mujilostra or anal intercourse between = men - was not very often enforced. Nevertheless, there was a very = notable scandal during Tchaikovsky's day, when a teacher who had seduced = many teenage boys was tried and convicted, and exiled to the provincial = city of Seratov for five years. (The maximum penalty was resettlement in = Siberia for a period of five years.) Tolstoy in his book Resurrection = mentions the case of a prominent homosexual who escapes legal = punishment, and calls this a case of 'evil triumphant'. In other words, = homosexuality was neither legal nor respectable in Russia, In any case = Tchaikovsky's own comments quoted at the beginning of this essay = indicate that a suspicion of homosexuality was often used to shame = people. And he often felt shame, or at least regret, over his own = homosexuality, writing in his diary, for example, 'What can I do to be = normal?' The enigmatic Fate motif in his Fourth Symphony probably stands = for the 'tragic curse' of his homosexual orientation. Poznansky does not adequately account for the inconsistencies in the = cholera story, which seems to have been concocted to hide the truth and = to avoid the stigma of suicide. Everyone at his death bed gave = conflicting accounts of exactly what happened, and one of the doctors' = accounts suggests he died one day sooner than that reported. The Swiss = musicologist Aloys Mooser and the French scholar Andr=E9 Lischke were = both informed that Glazunov confirmed that Tchaikovsky was homosexual = and had committed suicide, but Poznansky dismisses the accounts of = Bertenson and others because they were reported orally after their = deaths. When each claim is examined in isolation, it is admittedly = 'weak', but since all of the claims confirm one another despite coming = from different sources, they add up to 'strong' evidence in my opinion. = Do a dozen weak links add up to a chain? Well, yes, they do. In November 1993 the BBC broadcast a documentary on the death of = Tchaikovsky, called 'Pride or Prejudice,' which interviewed Orlova, = Brown, Poznansky and Karlinsky and various experts on Russian history, = and concluded largely in favor of the theory that Tchaikovsky had been = sentenced to death, ordered to do the decent thing. Dr John Henry of = Guy's Hospital, who works in the British National Poison Unit, concluded = that all the reported symptoms of Tchaikovsky's illness 'fit very = closely with arsenic poisoning,' and he suggested that people would have = known that acute diarrhoea, dehydration and kidney failure resembled the = manifestions of cholera which would help them put the death over as a = case of cholera.=20 There is a similar argument about the truth behind Tchaikovsky's sixth = and last symphony, the Path=E9tique, which some find profoundly = enigmatic and some find profoundly self-revealing: a longing to reveal = something, a sense of tragic destiny, a struggle for happiness defeaed = by implacable 'fate', i.e. oppression, a union of defiance and despair = with which many gay men have identified at least until the 1970s. = Tchaikovsky decided not to leave a detailed programmatic explanation of = his darkest work: 'Let them guess!' he told Modest. The last movement, = the Adagio Lamentoso, is prophetic not only of Tchaikovsky's own death, = but also that of its dedicatee, Bob Dav=EFdov, who became curator of the = Tchaikovsky Museum at his uncle's home in Klin, and who killed himself, = at the age of thirty-five. Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky to Vladimir Lvovich Dav=EFdov New York 2 May 1891 Things have gone so far that it is quite impossible to write letters. = Not a free moment, and I scarcely manage to write my diary. I made a = trip to Niagara. As soon as I returned I had to visit one Mayer at his = country house and pay some visits in the few free hours I had left. Then = I was invited out to lunch. Altogether I have been frightfully busy, and = I am completely numb with exhaustion. Tonight I have to be at a big = dinner, and then leave at midnight for Baltimore; tomorrow a rehearsal = and concert there, the day after that Washington, then Philadelphia, = then two days here, where all my time is already booked, and at last, on = the morning of the 21st, I leave. Oh God! Will I ever come to that happy = moment!!! In about a week after you receive this letter I will be with you!!! This = seems an unattainable, impossible happiness! I try to think of it as = little as possible, to have enough strength to stand up to the last = insufferable days. But in spite of all I feel that I shall remember = America with love. Everybody has been wonderfully kind. Here are a few newspaper cuttings. Shall bring many more with me. I = think that you will all much prefer reading my diary than getting only = short news from my letters. I embrace you all. P. Tchaikovsky In only one week!!! Town of Klin District of Moscow 25 June 1891 Bob! As promised I can report that I finished the sketches for the ballet = yesterday evening. You remember how, when you were here, I boasted that = I had only about five days work left. How wrong I was, for I barely = managed it in two weeks. No! the old man is definitely deteriorating. = Not only is his hair thinning and as white as snow; not only are his = teeth falling out and refusing to chew; not only is his sight = deteriorating and his eyes getting tired; not only are his legs = beginning to drag -p but the only faculty he has is beginning to fade = and disappear. . . . I get very tired if I read in the evenings - it = always results in a frightful headache. But unless I read I don't know = how else to kill time at night. This (I mean headaches as a result of = reading), is becoming a serious obstacle to life in the country, which = made me decide to look for a place to live that was not in the suburbs = of Petersburg but in the town itself. In general I think it would be = simpler to settle in Petersburg for good. Just the possibility alone to = be able to see more of you is so vitally important for me. I would love = to know what you are doing. Write at least a few words. . . . Klin, District of Moscow 22 July 1891 I am definitely coming to Kamenka, for I feel from your letter that you = would like me to come, and also because I have a great desire to see = you. . . . You are not at all like an empty suitcase. There are plenty of things in = it but they are still kept in disorder and it will take time to decide = and sort out those that are important. However, stop worrying, for it = will all sort itself out. Enjoy your youth and learn to cherish time; = the longer I live the more frightened I get at the aimless dissipation = of this prieless element of life. This rather high-flown sentence is = nothing more than the advice to read as much as possible. You have an = excellent gift of assimilating what you have read, I mean you do not = forget it but put it away in a sort of mental store-room until you need = it. I do not possess such a store-room. To be honest - no memory at all. = Am sending several numbers of the Fliegende Bl=E4tter. I embrace you, my idol! P. T. Paris 12-24 January 1892 I feel an awful fool. Here I have another two weeks without anything to = help me kill time. I thought this would be easier in Paris than anywhere = else but, except for the first day, I have been bored. Since yesterday I = do not know what to think up to be free of the worry and boredom that = come from idleness. . . . Am still keeping my incognito. . . . I often think of you and see you in my dreams, usually looking sad and = depressed. This has added a feeling of compassion to my love for you and = makes me love you even more. Oh God! How I want to see you this very = minute. Write me a letter from College during some boring lecture and = send it to this address (14, Rue Richepanse). It will still reach me as = I am staying here for nearly two weeks. I embrace you with mad tenderness. Yours P. Tchaikovsky Klin 12 August 1892 My dear Golubchik! I have just received your letter, and was terribly pleased to hear that = you are in a happy state of mind. Could it be that one of my letters to = you has been lost? I did not write very often but I did write. With all = my soul I long to join you, and think about it all the time. But what = can I do? There are more and more complications and more work every day. = . . . So all I can say is that it is impossible for me to leave before I have = finished all my business in Moscow. I embrace you to suffocation!!! P. T. Moscow 14 August 1892 I have just received the Paris photographs from Yurgenson and have told = him to send four of them to you. I was so glad to see what a good = likeness they were that I nearly started crying in the presence of = Yurgenson. All this proof correction had completely destroyed all other = feelings and thoughts and it had to be this little incident which made = me feel again how strong my love for you is. . . . Oh God! How I want to = see you. I embrace you. P. Tchaikovsky Berlin 16-28 December 1892 I am still sitting in Berlin. I haven't got enough energy to leave - = especially as there is no hurry. These last days I have been considering = and reflecting on matters of great importance. I looked perfectly = objectively through my new symphony and was glad that I had neither = orchestrated it or launched it; it makes a quite unfavourable = impression. . . . What must I do? Forget about composing? Too difficult = to say. So here I am, thinking, and thinking, and thinking, and not = knowing what to decide. Whatever happens these last three days were = unhappy ones. I am however, quite well, and have at last decided to leave for Basle = tomorrow. You wonder why I am writing about all this to you? Just an = irresistible longing to chat with you. . . . The weather is quite warm. = I can picture you sitting in your room, scented nearly to suffocation, = working at your college exercises. How I would love to be in that dear = room! Give my love to everybody. I embrace you. P. Tchaikovsky If only I could give way to my secret desire, I would leave everything = and go home. Klin 11 February 1893 If you do not want to write, at least spit on a piece of paper, put it = in an envelope, and send it to me. You are not taking any notice of me = at all. God forgive you - all I wanted was a few words from you. I am going to Moscow tonight. The concert will be on the 14th. On the = 15th I shall be going to Nijny-Novgorod for about three days and from = there straight to Petersburg. About the end of the second week in Lent, = therefore, I shall be with you. I want to tell you about the excellent state of mind I'm in so far as my = works are concerned. You know that I destroyed the symphony I had = composed and partly orchestrated in the autumn. And a good thing too! = There was nothing of interest in it - an empty play of sounds, without = inspiration. Now, on my journey, the idea of a new symphony came to me, = this time one with a programme, but a programme that will be a riddle = for everyone. Let them try and solve it. The work will be entitled A = Programme Symphony (No. 6) Symphonie =E0 Programme (No. 6), Eine = Programmsinfonie (Nr. 6) [Modest suggested the title finally adopted, = Symphonie Path=E9tique]. The programme of this symphony is completely = saturated with myself and quite often during my journey I cried = profusely. Having returned I have settled down to write the sketches and = the work is going so intensely, so fast, that the first movement was = ready in less than four days, and the others have taken shape in my = head. Half of the third movement is also done. There will still be much = that is new in the form of this work and the finale is not to be a loud = allegro, but the slowest adagio. You cannot imagine my feelings of bliss = now that I am convinced that the time has not gone forever, and that I = can still work. Of course, I may be wrong, but I do not think so. = Please, do not tell anyone, except Modest. I purposely address the letter to the College, so that no one shall read = it. Does all this really interest you? It sometimes seems to me that you = are not interested at all and that you have no real sympathy for me. = Good-bye, my dear. . . . Yours P. Tchaikovsky London 17-29 May 1893 I am writing to you with a voluptuous pleasure. The thought that this = paper is going to be in your hands fills me with joy and brings tears to = my eyes. Is it not curious that I voluntarily inflict upon myself all = these tortures? What the devil do I want it all for? Several times = yesterday, on my way, I wanted to run away; but somehow I felt ashamed = to return empty-handed. Yesterday my tortures reached such a pitch that = I lost both appetite and sleep and this happens very rarely. I am = suffering not only from anguish and distress which cannot be expressed = in words (in my new symphony there is a place which I think expresses it = very well) but also from a vague feeling of fear and the devil only = knows what else. The physical symptoms are pains at the bottom of my = bowels, and aching and weakness in the legs. So, definitely, this is the = last time I am going through all this. From now on I shall agree to go = anywhere only for a very large sum of money and not for more than three = days. . . . Klin 3 [or 2] August 1893 In my last letter to Modest I complain that you don't want to know me, = and now he is silent too, and all links with your crowd are completely = broken. . . . What makes me sad is that you take so little interest in me. Could it be = that you are positively a hard egotist? However, forgive me, I won't = pester you again. The symphony which I was going to dedicate to you (not = so sure that I shall now) is getting on. I am very pleased with the = music but not entirely satisfied with the instrumentation. It does not = come out as I hoped it would. It will be quite conventional and no = surprise if this symphony is abused and unappreciated - that has = happened before. But I definitely find it my very best, and in = particular the most sincere of all my compositions. I love it as I have = never loved any of my musical children. . . . At the end of August I shall have to go abroad for a week. If I = were sure that you would still be in Verbovka in September I would love = to come at the beginning of the month. But I know nothing about you. I embrace you with all my love. P. Tchaikovsky -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- SOURCES: Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Letters to his Family: An = Autobiography, trans. Galina von Meck; with additional annotations by = Percy M. Young (London: Dennis Dobson, 1981). English translations = copyright =A9 1973 by Galina von Meck. The Diaries of Tchaikovsky, = trans. Wladimir Lakond (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, Ind., 1945). = David Brown, Tchaikovsky Remembered (London and Boston: Faber and Faber, = 1993). -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- CITATION: If you cite this Web page, please use the following form of = citation: Rictor Norton, "Gay Love-Letters from Tchaikovsky to his Nephew Bob = Davidof", The Great Queens of History, 19 October 2002, updated 5 = November 2005 http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/tchaikov.htm.=20 http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/tchaikov.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- In 1877, Tchaikovsky made the disastrous mistake of marrying one of his = pupils, Antonina Ivanova Miliukova. Tchaikovsky was a hyperemotional, = unhappy and secretive homosexual hoping that a respectable marriage with = a hero worshipping student would be a workable solution to his plight. = Unfortunately he chose a woman who was not only not bright, but a = nymphomaniac as well. The marriage lasted nine weeks culminating in = Tchaikovsky attempting suicide by jumping in a river to give himself = pneumonia (again reminiscent of Schumann). His brother Modest, also = homosexual, saved him and took him back to St Petersburg where = Tchaikovsky suffered a complete nervous breakdown.=20 http://www.classicalarchives.com/bios/tchaikovsky_bio.html Another version: =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- The Death of Tchaikovsky=20 On November 6, 1893 died in St. Petersburg. There are several opinions = on the cause of his death. The official version states that he died of = cholera after drinking a glass of unboiled water. Another theory is that = he was forced to take arsenic to preserve his school's good name when it = was apparent that his homosexuality was about to become a scandal. His funeral at St. Petersburg's Kazan Cathedral drew 8,000 mourners, and = thousands more lined the route to the cemetery. Learn More About Peter Ilich Tchaikovsky = http://www.lambda.net/~maximum/tchaik.html ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C69E28.D1896240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Happy Self-Determination = Day

 

 

 

How happy is it?

 

Every year, year = after year after=20 year, during the = Independence=20 holiday, The Forth of July, I think of the utter hypocrisy=20 America = has=20 become.  Constantly, they = complain=20 on about freedom=96on and on about our freedom, on and on about family = values, our=20 capitalistic system, and deeply religious way of life.  Yet, each year, during the = climax of=20 concerts and fireworks, we hear one of the most famous, most = inspirational and=20 beloved pieces, and truly an all-American tradition during = festivities.  The Russian music = Tchaikovsky=92s Overture=20 solennelle =931812,=94 Op. 492 is American as apple pie.  Nonetheless, it is Russian = music.  What do we know of this = all-American=20 music?  Who is the = composer=97shall we=20 have a closer look?

 

 

 

<= FONT=20 face=3D"Bookman Old Style">

Gay Love-Letters from Tchaikovsky to his Nephew Bob=20 Davidov

Gay men have taken to their hearts the music of Piotr Ilyich = Tchaikovsky=20 (1840-93) because it is perceived (rightly or wrongly) to contain all = the=20 longing and despair of homosexual angst in a homophobic world. Although = he was=20 one of the great musical thinkers, it is for the melodic lyricism and = suffering=20 so audible in his work, rather than its complexity or brilliance, that = he will=20 be remembered.

3D"Tchaikovsky = Tchaikovsky's=20 homosexuality was denied by Soviet musicologists until fairly recently, = and much=20 material still remains to be retrieved from Russian archives and = published in=20 English. His lovers included Alexey Apukhtin in his music student days = 1867-70;=20 Vladimir Shilovsky, a wealthy young lad whom he also met at the Moscow=20 Conservatory, during 1868-72, and who financed several trips for the two = of=20 them; Alexei Sofronov his valet from 1872 to the end of his life; his = pupil=20 Eduard Zak, who killed himself in 1873 (he inspired the Romeo and = Juliet=20 Fantasy Overture); Joseph Kotek in the mid-1870s; his nephew = Vladimir=20 Davidov (second son of his sister Alexandra) in the 1880s-1890s, to whom = he=20 dedicated the Symphonie Path=E9tique (1893); and the young = pianist Vassily=20 Sapelnikov who went with him on a tour to Germany, France and England. = In=20 addition, many brief affairs are recorded in his cryptographic diary; = e.g. on=20 March 22, 1889 he records that a =91Negro came in to me=92, to his hotel = room in=20 Paris.

But Tchaikovsky was uneasy about his sexuality =96 unlike his brother = Modest,=20 who was also gay, and who lived relatively openly with his boyfriend = Nikolai=20 (=91Kolia=92) Hermanovich Konradi (1868-1923), a deaf and dumb boy whom = Modest=20 tutored and with whom he lived for about seventeen years from 1876. = During a=20 mid-life crisis at the age of thirty-six, Piotr wrote to his = brother:

I am now going through a very critical period of my life. I will go = into=20 more detail later, but for now I will simply tell you, I have decided = to get=20 married. It is unavoidable. I must do it, not just for myself but for = you,=20 Modeste, and all those I love. I think that for both of us our = dispositions=20 are the greatest and most insuperable obstacle to happiness, and we = must fight=20 our natures to the best of our ability. So far as I am concerned, I = will do my=20 utmost to get married this year, and if I lack the necessary courage, = I will=20 at any rate abandon my habits forever. Surely you realize how painful = it is=20 for me to know that people pity and forgive me when in truth I am not = guilty=20 of anything. How appalling to think that those who love me are = sometimes=20 ashamed of me. In short, I seek marriage or some sort of public = involvement=20 with a woman so as to shut the mouths of assorted contemptible = creatures whose=20 opinions mean nothing to me, but who are in a position to cause = distress to=20 those near to me.

Tchaikovsky married Antonina Milyukova in 1877, but frankly told his = wife he=20 did not love her though he would be her devoted friend. Not = surprisingly, the=20 marriage ended disastrously after a few months, which brought = Tchaikovsky close=20 to a nervous breakdown and helped him accept his unchangable sexual = nature and=20 stop tormenting himself.

It is possible that Tchaikovsky married Milyukova =91on the = rebound=92 after=20 being rejected by some male lover. At the time, he was busy composing = Tatiana's=20 Letter Scene in his opera Eugene Onegin. He very clearly = identified with=20 Tatiana, who had been rejected by her lover Onegin. He had recently = responded to=20 a letter from Milyukova and had agreed to meet with her, but he = pointedly notes=20 in a letter to his brother Modest that he had entirely forgotten about = Milyukova=20 when working on his opera:

I didn't ask any more about Mlle Milyukova. I was entirely = preoccupied at=20 the time with thoughts about Eugene Onegin, i.e. with Tatiana = whose=20 letter had originally drawn me to composing the opera. I began writing = the=20 letter song, driven to the work by an irresistible emotional need, in = the heat=20 of which I not only forgot about Antonina Milyukova, but even lost her = letter=20 or hid it so successfully that I couldn't find it. I remembered about = it only=20 when a little later I received the second one. I was completely buried = in my=20 composition and had grown so close to the character of Tatiana that = she and=20 all around her started to seem real to me. I loved Tatiana and was = terribly=20 angry with Onegin, whom I saw as simply cold and heartless. When I = received=20 the second letter, I was ashamed, and even came to hate myself for my = attitude=20 toward Mlle Milyukova. In this second letter she bitterly complained = that she=20 had not received a reply, adding that if the second letter met with = the same=20 fate as the first, the only course open to her was to take her own = life. In my=20 mind this all got associated with my conception of Tatiana, and it = seemed to=20 me as if I myself had behaved infinitely worse than = Onegin.

But when he finally met Milyukova, the first thing he told her was = =91I could=20 not return her love=92. It is clear that the heart-rending Letter Scene = was not=20 inspired by Milyukova, but that his identification with Tatiania = compelled him=20 to agree to marry Milyukova, for fear of being as heartless as Onegin. = Thus his=20 identification with a female paradoxically made him temporarily reject = his=20 desires for a male, or, rather, his desire to be desired by a man like=20 Onegin.

3D"TchaikovskyVladimir = Lvovich=20 Dav=EFdov (1871/2-1906) =96 Tchaikovsky=92s nephew nicknamed =91Bob=92 = [illustrated at the=20 right] =96 became his lover from the late 1880s. Tchaikovsky was always = homesick=20 during his musical tours abroad =96 he hated the loneliness of large = cities =96 and=20 he always longed to get back home to be with his beloved nephew =96 = =91my idol=92 =96=20 whom he made his heir. His letter to Bob from a hotel room in London in = May 1893=20 shows this correspondence to have been his life-line: =91I am writing to = you with=20 a voluptuous pleasure. The thought that this paper is going to be in = your hands=20 fills me with joy and brings tears to my eyes.=92 Later that year = =91Kolia=92 chucked=20 out Modest, and there were plans to set up an apartment in St Petersburg = where=20 Modest, Piotr and Bob would live together.

But it was not to be, for in November 1893, less than a month after = the=20 premiere of the Symphonie Path=E9tique, Tchaikovsky was murdered. = It was=20 reported that he died from cholera, caused by drinking an unboiled glass = of=20 water. On November 1 (New Style; the Russian Old Style calendar was = twelve days=20 behind this) he dined at a restaurant with Bob after seeing a play, and = insisted=20 on being brought a glass of water even though it was unboiled and even = though=20 his friends remonstrated with him. (Another version has it that he ran = to the=20 kitchen in Modest=92s apartment to get the unboiled water, shouting = =91Who cares=20 anyway!=92) On November 2 he fell ill, and on November 6 he was dead, = from kidney=20 failure and dehydration caused by vomiting and diarrhoea. But death from = cholera=20 cannot possibly occur so soon after an infection, and even = Rimsky-Korsakov, who=20 paid his respects to the composer=92s body in Modest=92s apartment, = thought it was=20 strange that the apartment had not been disinfected and that people were = even=20 allowed to kiss the corpse despite government regulations that required = that the=20 coffin be sealed in cases of cholera. Rumors of suicide began to fly. In = the=20 1920s one of the doctors who attended him, Vasily Bertenson, admitted = that=20 Tchaikovsky had poisoned himself.

3D"TchaikovskyThe facts = of=20 Tchaikovsky's death were revealed to the West by Alexandra Orlova, a = Soviet=20 musical scholar who emigrated to the USA in 1979. It was privately known = in=20 Soviet musical circles in the 1920s and 1930s (including people such as=20 Alexander Glazunov) that Tchaikovsky had not died of cholera, but had = killed=20 himself. In 1966 Alexander Voitov, a pupil and historian of the St = Petersburg=20 School of Jurisprudence, told Orlova what really happened. In 1913 he = was told=20 by the widow of Nikolay Jacobi that she had a terrible secret she did = not wish=20 to take to the grave. In autumn 1893 Duke Stenbok-Fermor wrote a letter=20 addressed to Tsar Alexander III complaining of the attentions the = composer was=20 paying his (the Duke's) young nephew; this letter was handed to the = civil=20 servant Jacobi to pass on to the Tsar. Exposure would have meant loss of = civil=20 rights and exile to Siberia, and public disgrace not only for = Tchaikovsky, but=20 for his fellow former students of the School of Jurisprudence. Instead = of=20 passing on the letter, Jacobi assembled a court of honor of the old boys = of the=20 school and summoned Tchaikovsky to his apartment. Jacobi's wife could = hear loud=20 voices behind the closed door, and after a meeting that lasted five = hours=20 Tchaikovsky ran unsteadily from the room, very white and agitated. When = the=20 others had gone Jacobi told his wife that the court of honor had = required=20 Tchaikovsky to kill himself and he had promised to comply with their = demand. A=20 day or two later his illness was reported. Nataliya = Kuznetsova-Fladimova, the=20 granddaughter of the sister of the wife of Tchaikovsky=92s eldest = brother Nikolay,=20 after reading Orlova=92s account in 1987, told her that the story was = true, and=20 was the same story told by her grandmother who died very old in 1955. = Her=20 grandmother also said that Tsar Alexander III was shown the = incriminating letter=20 to Count Stenbok after Tchaikovsky=92s death.

The prominence given to the supposedly infected glass of water shows = it to=20 have been a symbolic leave-taking; the major Tchaikovsky biographer = David Brown=20 calls it =91a very public demonstration of something happening, to give = an=20 explanation for something that was going to happen in due course.=92 = Tchaikovsky's=20 most recent biographer Alexander Poznansky rejects the court of honor = story=20 because he does not believe such things could happen in the civilized = society=20 that Russia was at this time. Poznansky even points out that there were = other=20 homosexuals in the School of Jurisprudence, such as the statesman = Vladimir=20 Meshesvsky, who was protected by the Tsar after being denounced for = seducing a=20 bugle boy in the imperial marching band, However, trying to seduce the = son of=20 Count Stenbok might well have been considered more reprehensible and = damaging to=20 the public image of the School. In any event, the historian Simon = Karlinsky has=20 proved that courts of honor did in fact exist at the time (though = usually they=20 only demanded resignations etc., as when Chekhov=92s editor was called = to a court=20 of honor). Karlinsky acknowledges that the Russian law against = homosexuality =96=20 more specifically, Paragraph 995 which prohibited mujilostra or = anal=20 intercourse between men =96 was not very often enforced. Nevertheless, = there was a=20 very notable scandal during Tchaikovsky=92s day, when a teacher who had = seduced=20 many teenage boys was tried and convicted, and exiled to the provincial = city of=20 Seratov for five years. (The maximum penalty was resettlement in Siberia = for a=20 period of five years.) Tolstoy in his book Resurrection mentions = the case=20 of a prominent homosexual who escapes legal punishment, and calls this a = case of=20 =91evil triumphant=92. In other words, homosexuality was neither legal = nor=20 respectable in Russia, In any case Tchaikovsky=92s own comments quoted = at the=20 beginning of this essay indicate that a suspicion of homosexuality was = often=20 used to shame people. And he often felt shame, or at least regret, over = his own=20 homosexuality, writing in his diary, for example, =91What can I do to be = normal?=92=20 The enigmatic Fate motif in his Fourth Symphony probably stands = for the=20 =91tragic curse=92 of his homosexual orientation.

Poznansky does not adequately account for the inconsistencies in the = cholera=20 story, which seems to have been concocted to hide the truth and to avoid = the=20 stigma of suicide. Everyone at his death bed gave conflicting accounts = of=20 exactly what happened, and one of the doctors=92 accounts suggests he = died one day=20 sooner than that reported. The Swiss musicologist Aloys Mooser and the = French=20 scholar Andr=E9 Lischke were both informed that Glazunov confirmed that=20 Tchaikovsky was homosexual and had committed suicide, but Poznansky = dismisses=20 the accounts of Bertenson and others because they were reported orally = after=20 their deaths. When each claim is examined in isolation, it is admittedly = =91weak=92,=20 but since all of the claims confirm one another despite coming from = different=20 sources, they add up to =91strong=92 evidence in my opinion. Do a dozen = weak links=20 add up to a chain? Well, yes, they do.

In November 1993 the BBC broadcast a documentary on the death of = Tchaikovsky,=20 called =91Pride or Prejudice,=92 which interviewed Orlova, Brown, = Poznansky and=20 Karlinsky and various experts on Russian history, and concluded largely = in favor=20 of the theory that Tchaikovsky had been sentenced to death, ordered to = do the=20 decent thing. Dr John Henry of Guy's Hospital, who works in the British = National=20 Poison Unit, concluded that all the reported symptoms of Tchaikovsky's = illness=20 =91fit very closely with arsenic poisoning,=92 and he suggested that = people would=20 have known that acute diarrhoea, dehydration and kidney failure = resembled the=20 manifestions of cholera which would help them put the death over as a = case of=20 cholera.

There is a similar argument about the truth behind Tchaikovsky=92s = sixth and=20 last symphony, the Path=E9tique, which some find profoundly = enigmatic and=20 some find profoundly self-revealing: a longing to reveal something, a = sense of=20 tragic destiny, a struggle for happiness defeaed by implacable = =91fate=92, i.e.=20 oppression, a union of defiance and despair with which many gay men have = identified at least until the 1970s. Tchaikovsky decided not to leave a = detailed=20 programmatic explanation of his darkest work: =91Let them guess!=92 he = told Modest.=20 The last movement, the Adagio Lamentoso, is prophetic not only of = Tchaikovsky=92s=20 own death, but also that of its dedicatee, Bob Dav=EFdov, who became = curator of=20 the Tchaikovsky Museum at his uncle=92s home in Klin, and who killed = himself, at=20 the age of thirty-five.

Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky to Vladimir Lvovich Dav=EFdov

New York
2 May 1891

Things have gone so far that it is quite impossible to write letters. = Not a=20 free moment, and I scarcely manage to write my diary. I made a trip to = Niagara.=20 As soon as I returned I had to visit one Mayer at his country house and = pay some=20 visits in the few free hours I had left. Then I was invited out to = lunch.=20 Altogether I have been frightfully busy, and I am completely numb with=20 exhaustion. Tonight I have to be at a big dinner, and then leave at = midnight for=20 Baltimore; tomorrow a rehearsal and concert there, the day after that=20 Washington, then Philadelphia, then two days here, where all my time is = already=20 booked, and at last, on the morning of the 21st, I leave. Oh God! Will I = ever=20 come to that happy moment!!!

In about a week after you receive this letter I will be with you!!! = This=20 seems an unattainable, impossible happiness! I try to think of it as = little as=20 possible, to have enough strength to stand up to the last insufferable = days. But=20 in spite of all I feel that I shall remember America with love. = Everybody has=20 been wonderfully kind.

Here are a few newspaper cuttings. Shall bring many more with me. I = think=20 that you will all much prefer reading my diary than getting only short = news from=20 my letters.

     I embrace you=20 all.
          P.=20 Tchaikovsky
     In only one week!!!

Town of Klin
District of Moscow
25 June = 1891

Bob!

As promised I can report that I finished the sketches for the ballet=20 yesterday evening. You remember how, when you were here, I boasted that = I had=20 only about five days work left. How wrong I was, for I barely managed it = in two=20 weeks. No! the old man is definitely deteriorating. Not only is his hair = thinning and as white as snow; not only are his teeth falling out and = refusing=20 to chew; not only is his sight deteriorating and his eyes getting tired; = not=20 only are his legs beginning to drag =96p but the only faculty he has is = beginning=20 to fade and disappear. . . . I get very tired if I read in the = evenings =96 it always results in a frightful headache. But unless I = read I don't=20 know how else to kill time at night. This (I mean headaches as a result = of=20 reading), is becoming a serious obstacle to life in the country, which = made me=20 decide to look for a place to live that was not in the suburbs of = Petersburg but=20 in the town itself. In general I think it would be simpler to settle in=20 Petersburg for good. Just the possibility alone to be able to see more = of you is=20 so vitally important for me. I would love to know what you are doing. = Write at=20 least a few words. . . .

Klin, District of Moscow
22 July 1891

I am definitely coming to Kamenka, for I feel from your letter that = you would=20 like me to come, and also because I have a great desire to see you.=20 . . .

You are not at all like an empty suitcase. There are plenty of things = in it=20 but they are still kept in disorder and it will take time to decide and = sort out=20 those that are important. However, stop worrying, for it will all sort = itself=20 out. Enjoy your youth and learn to cherish time; the longer I live the = more=20 frightened I get at the aimless dissipation of this prieless element of = life.=20 This rather high-flown sentence is nothing more than the advice to = read as=20 much as possible. You have an excellent gift of assimilating what = you have=20 read, I mean you do not forget it but put it away in a sort of mental = store-room=20 until you need it. I do not possess such a store-room. To be honest =96 = no memory=20 at all. Am sending several numbers of the Fliegende = Bl=E4tter.

     I embrace you, my=20 idol!
          P. = T.

Paris
12-24 January 1892

I feel an awful fool. Here I have another two weeks without anything = to help=20 me kill time. I thought this would be easier in Paris than anywhere else = but,=20 except for the first day, I have been bored. Since yesterday I do not = know what=20 to think up to be free of the worry and boredom that come from idleness. = . . . Am still keeping my incognito. . . .

I often think of you and see you in my dreams, usually looking sad = and=20 depressed. This has added a feeling of compassion to my love for you and = makes=20 me love you even more. Oh God! How I want to see you this very minute. = Write me=20 a letter from College during some boring lecture and send it to this = address=20 (14, Rue Richepanse). It will still reach me as I am staying here for = nearly two=20 weeks.

I embrace you with mad tenderness.

     Yours
     P= .=20 Tchaikovsky

Klin
12 August 1892

My dear Golubchik!

I have just received your letter, and was terribly pleased to hear = that you=20 are in a happy state of mind. Could it be that one of my letters to you = has been=20 lost? I did not write very often but I did write. With all my soul I = long to=20 join you, and think about it all the time. But what can I do? There are = more and=20 more complications and more work every day. . . .

So all I can say is that it is impossible for me to leave before I = have=20 finished all my business in Moscow.

     I embrace you to=20 suffocation!!!
         &= nbsp;P.=20 T.

Moscow
14 August 1892

I have just received the Paris photographs from Yurgenson and have = told him=20 to send four of them to you. I was so glad to see what a good likeness = they were=20 that I nearly started crying in the presence of Yurgenson. All this = proof=20 correction had completely destroyed all other feelings and thoughts and = it had=20 to be this little incident which made me feel again how strong my love = for you=20 is. . . . Oh God! How I want to see you.

     I embrace=20 you.
          P.=20 Tchaikovsky

Berlin
16-28 December 1892

I am still sitting in Berlin. I haven't got enough energy to leave = =96=20 especially as there is no hurry. These last days I have been considering = and=20 reflecting on matters of great importance. I looked perfectly = objectively=20 through my new symphony and was glad that I had neither orchestrated it = or=20 launched it; it makes a quite unfavourable impression. . . . = What must=20 I do? Forget about composing? Too difficult to say. So here I am, = thinking, and=20 thinking, and thinking, and not knowing what to decide. Whatever happens = these=20 last three days were unhappy ones.

I am however, quite well, and have at last decided to leave for Basle = tomorrow. You wonder why I am writing about all this to you? Just an=20 irresistible longing to chat with you. . . . The weather is = quite=20 warm. I can picture you sitting in your room, scented nearly to = suffocation,=20 working at your college exercises. How I would love to be in that dear = room!=20 Give my love to everybody.

     I embrace=20 you.
          P.=20 Tchaikovsky

If only I could give way to my secret desire, I would leave = everything and go=20 home.

Klin
11 February 1893

If you do not want to write, at least spit on a piece of paper, put = it in an=20 envelope, and send it to me. You are not taking any notice of me at all. = God=20 forgive you =96 all I wanted was a few words from you.

I am going to Moscow tonight. The concert will be on the 14th. On the = 15th I=20 shall be going to Nijny-Novgorod for about three days and from there = straight to=20 Petersburg. About the end of the second week in Lent, therefore, I shall = be with=20 you.

I want to tell you about the excellent state of mind I'm in so far as = my=20 works are concerned. You know that I destroyed the symphony I had = composed and=20 partly orchestrated in the autumn. And a good thing too! There was = nothing of=20 interest in it =96 an empty play of sounds, without inspiration. Now, on = my=20 journey, the idea of a new symphony came to me, this time one with a = programme,=20 but a programme that will be a riddle for everyone. Let them try and = solve it.=20 The work will be entitled A Programme Symphony (No. 6) = Symphonie =E0=20 Programme (No. 6), Eine Programmsinfonie (Nr. 6) [Modest = suggested=20 the title finally adopted, Symphonie Path=E9tique]. The programme = of this=20 symphony is completely saturated with myself and quite often during my = journey I=20 cried profusely. Having returned I have settled down to write the = sketches and=20 the work is going so intensely, so fast, that the first movement was = ready in=20 less than four days, and the others have taken shape in my head. Half of = the=20 third movement is also done. There will still be much that is new in the = form of=20 this work and the finale is not to be a loud allegro, but the = slowest=20 adagio. You cannot imagine my feelings of bliss now that I am = convinced=20 that the time has not gone forever, and that I can still work. Of = course, I may=20 be wrong, but I do not think so. Please, do not tell anyone, except = Modest.

I purposely address the letter to the College, so that no one shall = read it.=20 Does all this really interest you? It sometimes seems to me that you are = not=20 interested at all and that you have no real sympathy for me. Good-bye, = my dear.=20 . . .

     Yours
     &= nbsp;    P.=20 Tchaikovsky

London
17-29 May 1893

I am writing to you with a voluptuous pleasure. The thought that this = paper=20 is going to be in your hands fills me with joy and brings tears to my = eyes. Is=20 it not curious that I voluntarily inflict upon myself all these = tortures? What=20 the devil do I want it all for? Several times yesterday, on my way, I = wanted to=20 run away; but somehow I felt ashamed to return empty-handed. Yesterday = my=20 tortures reached such a pitch that I lost both appetite and sleep and = this=20 happens very rarely. I am suffering not only from anguish and distress = which=20 cannot be expressed in words (in my new symphony there is a place which = I think=20 expresses it very well) but also from a vague feeling of fear and the = devil only=20 knows what else. The physical symptoms are pains at the bottom of my = bowels, and=20 aching and weakness in the legs. So, definitely, this is the last time I = am=20 going through all this. From now on I shall agree to go anywhere only = for a very=20 large sum of money and not for more than three days. . . .

Klin
3 [or 2] August 1893

In my last letter to Modest I complain that you don't want to know = me, and=20 now he is silent too, and all links with your crowd are completely = broken.=20 . . .

What makes me sad is that you take so little interest in me. Could it = be that=20 you are positively a hard egotist? However, forgive me, I won't pester = you=20 again. The symphony which I was going to dedicate to you (not so sure = that I=20 shall now) is getting on. I am very pleased with the music but not = entirely=20 satisfied with the instrumentation. It does not come out as I hoped it = would. It=20 will be quite conventional and no surprise if this symphony is abused = and=20 unappreciated =96 that has happened before. But I definitely find it my = very best,=20 and in particular the most sincere of all my compositions. I love it as = I have=20 never loved any of my musical children.

. . . At the end of August I shall have to go abroad for a = week. If=20 I were sure that you would still be in Verbovka in September I would = love to=20 come at the beginning of the month. But I know nothing about you.

     I embrace you with all my=20 love.
          P.=20 Tchaikovsky

SOURCES: Piotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Letters to his Family: = An=20 Autobiography, trans. Galina von Meck; with additional annotations = by Percy=20 M. Young (London: Dennis Dobson, 1981). English translations copyright = =A9 1973 by=20 Galina von Meck. The Diaries of Tchaikovsky, trans. Wladimir = Lakond (New=20 York: W. W. Norton & Company, Ind., 1945). David Brown, = Tchaikovsky=20 Remembered (London and Boston: Faber and Faber, 1993).

CITATION: If you cite this Web page, please use the = following form=20 of citation:
Rictor Norton, "Gay Love-Letters from Tchaikovsky to his = Nephew=20 Bob Davidof", The Great Queens of History, 19 October 2002, = updated 5=20 November 2005 http://www.infopt.dem= on.co.uk/tchaikov.htm.=20
 
http://www.infopt.dem= on.co.uk/tchaikov.htm
 
 
 
 
 
In = 1877,=20 Tchaikovsky made the disastrous mistake of marrying one of his pupils, = Antonina=20 Ivanova Miliukova. Tchaikovsky was a hyperemotional, unhappy and = secretive=20 homosexual hoping that a respectable marriage with a hero worshipping = student=20 would be a workable solution to his plight. Unfortunately he chose a = woman who=20 was not only not bright, but a nymphomaniac as well. The marriage lasted = nine=20 weeks culminating in Tchaikovsky attempting suicide by jumping in a = river to=20 give himself pneumonia (again reminiscent of Schumann). His brother = Modest, also=20 homosexual, saved him and took him back to St Petersburg where = Tchaikovsky=20 suffered a complete nervous breakdown.
http:= //www.classicalarchives.com/bios/tchaikovsky_bio.html
 
 
Another version:  =
 
 

The=20 Death of Tchaikovsky

On=20 November 6, 1893 died in St. Petersburg. There are several opinions on = the cause=20 of his death. The official version states that he died of cholera after = drinking=20 a glass of unboiled water. Another theory is that he was forced to take = arsenic=20 to preserve his school's good name when it was apparent that his = homosexuality=20 was about to become a scandal.

His=20 funeral at St. Petersburg's Kazan Cathedral drew 8,000 mourners, and = thousands=20 more lined the route to the cemetery.

Learn=20 More About Peter Ilich Tchaikovsky http://www.lambda.net= /~maximum/tchaik.html

 

 

 

 

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[192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4C9974127 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:00:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 2.538 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.781, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Rqs2JzIeKupy for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist: delayed 303 seconds by postgrey-1.23 at vidar; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:00:08 PDT Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2B74D408A for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PeteskiToo@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.5.) id s.507.2f0822e (14501) for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:54:43 -0400 (EDT) From: PeteskiToo@aol.com Message-ID: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:54:42 EDT Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_507.2f0822e.31daa5d2_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 17:00:23 -0000 --part1_507.2f0822e.31daa5d2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary - Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian territory in the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including settlements, wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. The other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, has helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, including a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that and I find that troubling. The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, regardless of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling the parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an end to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, this is a tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be exchanged as part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to be done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian people a feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of existential annihilation: 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements in Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will redirected to be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, like in Hebron. 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West bank and East Jerusalem 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to their lands. 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs are Sand Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and which I've seen with my own eyes. 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes clear that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have access to attorneys and know the charges against them. 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler violence and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children from going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, at long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the remaining territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus Palestinians on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the dynamic of the current situation. As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity to be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it will probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. For there to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree with the solution, including most members of militant groups. When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that you want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for justice for the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN resolutions. When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, you obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian side, 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some arbitrary 67 borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is really quite unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for Jews. After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. In our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women are created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing the Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious group, we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as Americans. Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" state for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special rights for certain ethnic groups. Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. Even though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out even more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove his fist, the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. On top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest is an "arbitrary" border! I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many others are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military actions. Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? Happy 4th of July! Sincerely, Peter ==================== Original Message ================ If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. Here are the circumstances. a. Hamas is the elected govt. b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to exist. Neither does Fatah! Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. Gary --part1_507.2f0822e.31daa5d2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gary -
Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical po= int: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian territory in= the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including settlem= ents, wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures.=    The other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, whil= e not perfect, has helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks=20= against Israelis.  Most people getting killed in the conflict these day= s are Palestinian, including a large number of women and children.  You= don't seem to realize that and I find that troubling.

The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The Colonization=20= of Palestine Precludes Peace."   He stated that "Israel's occupati= on of Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy L= and, regardless of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one he= aded by Yasser Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas= controlling the parliament and cabinet."   http://www.cartercente= r.org/doc2320.htm

So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an end= to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements.  Obviously, t= his is a tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two=20= state solution.  Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land coul= d be exchanged as part of a peace agreement,  but steps similar to the=20= following need to be done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in= the Palestinian people a feeling of hope for the future and end their very=20= real feelings of existential annihilation:
1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements in=20= Palestinian areas.  If wall construction must continue, it will redirec= ted to be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements.
3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, like= in Hebron.
4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West ba= nk and East Jerusalem
5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the c= hoke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and Qalq= ylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to their l= ands.
6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against Palestinia= ns: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs are Sand Nigge= rs," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and which=20= I've seen with my own eyes.
7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and c= hildren. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes clea= r that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have a= ccess to attorneys and know the charges against them.
8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians
9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns
10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler violenc= e and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children fr= om going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields.

These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, a= t long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the remaini= ng territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine.  This, coupled with=20= a concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus P= alestinians on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing= the dynamic of the current situation.

As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity to=20= be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian so= ciety.  After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it w= ill probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinian= s. For there to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has=20= to agree with the solution, including most members of militant groups.

When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that you=20= want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for justice=20= for the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and=20= UN resolutions.

When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, you= obviously touch on a number of important issues.  From the Palestinian= side,
1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively e= xpanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some arbitrary= 67 borders?"  Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts o= n the ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is=20= really quite unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise.
2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for Jews= .  After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinia= ns.  In our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men a= nd women are created equal and value the separation of church from state.&nb= sp; By forcing the Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific e= thnic/religious group, we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves= hold dear as Americans.  Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to a= ccept Israel as a "Jewish" state for the sake of peace, but it must be ackno= wledged that there are serious moral and ethical problems with establishing=20= a state creating special rights for certain ethnic groups.

Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. =20= Even though he is being stung, he fears that  removing his fist will le= t out even more hornets, which is certainly possible.  But, until he do= es remove his fist, the hornets will get more and more angry and will contin= ue to sting him.  On top of that, the man keeps insisting that the insi= de of the hornet's nest is an "arbitrary" border! 

I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many others= are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military actio= ns.  Do you think they're ready to accept Israel?

Happy 4th of July!

Sincerely,
Peter


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Original Messag= e =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace.
Here are the circumstances.
a. Hamas is the elected govt.
b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to=20= exist. Neither does Fatah!
Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory that=20= now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked y= ou from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and= not preventing maniacal terrorists?
What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the a= ffirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy theoretical=20= and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the=20= way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice.
Gary



 --part1_507.2f0822e.31daa5d2_boundary-- From stevethegreen@riseup.net Mon Jul 3 10:13:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9440A46D2 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.975 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.975 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.013, BAYES_50=0.001, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id B4xYYmVZY9C0 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (buffy.riseup.net [208.99.202.32]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id CBCD346D0 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5E4A2D98 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (buffy [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05499-38 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D71A2E1A for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user stevethegreen) by mail.riseup.net with HTTP; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3930.stevethegreen.1151946651.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> References: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation From: stevethegreen@riseup.net To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at riseup.net X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 17:13:00 -0000 Excellent insightful and detailed comments Peter! Thank you! -Steve > Gary - > Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical > point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian > territory in > the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including > settlements, > wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. > The > other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, > has > helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. > Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, > including > a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that and > I > find that troubling. > > The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The > Colonization > of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of > Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, > regardless > of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser > Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling > the > parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm > > So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an > end > to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, this > is a > tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state > solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be > exchanged as > part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to be > done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian > people a > feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of > existential > annihilation: > 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements > in > Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will redirected > to > be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. > 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. > 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, > like > in Hebron. > 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West > bank and East Jerusalem > 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the > choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and > Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to > their lands. > > 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against > Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs > are Sand > Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and > which I've > seen with my own eyes. > 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and > children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes > clear > that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have > access > to attorneys and know the charges against them. > 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians > 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns > 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler > violence > and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children > from > going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. > > These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, > at > long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the > remaining > territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a > concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus > Palestinians > on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the > dynamic > of the current situation. > > As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity > to > be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian > society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it > will > probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. > For there > to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree > with > the solution, including most members of militant groups. > > When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that > you > want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for > justice for > the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN > resolutions. > > When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, > you > obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian > side, > 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively > expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some > arbitrary 67 > borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the > ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is > really quite > unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. > 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for > Jews. > After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. > In > our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women > are > created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing > the > Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious > group, > we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as > Americans. > Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" > state > for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious > moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special > rights for > certain ethnic groups. > > Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. > Even > though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out > even > more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove his > fist, > the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. > On > top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest > is an > "arbitrary" border! > > I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many > others > are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military > actions. > Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? > > Happy 4th of July! > > Sincerely, > Peter > > > ==================== Original Message ================ > > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > Here are the circumstances. > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right > to > exist. Neither does Fatah! > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you > from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and > not > preventing maniacal terrorists? > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical and > easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the > way > to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > Gary > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > From politicaltao@taotetao.com Mon Jul 3 10:23:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 64D9C46D2 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:23:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.287 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id JN0qNFX+aEWz for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NORTHROADSYSTEM.trainpac.com (72.b.1343.static.theplanet.com [67.19.11.114]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id E6B4846D0 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([127.0.0.1]) with MailEnable ESMTP; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 17:50:27 +0000 From: "E. R. Douglas" To: Subject: RE: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:50:30 -0700 Organization: 4POD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69DC5.59FB2FF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <043b01c69dea$45745dc0$0300a8c0@laptop> Cc: waterbow@bezeqint.net X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: politicaltao@taotetao.com, pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 17:23:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69DC5.59FB2FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is exactly the kind of really hard question that needs to be asked = (and answered), both in Israel and in Palestine, and well I guess here, too. =20 I don't want to presume I can answer it satisfactorily off the cuff = here, but maybe just highlight a few salient points. =20 It is vitally important that the leadership work towards winning the = hearts and minds of the majority of Palestinian people. In time, where there = are democratic structures, and they are there (though not perfect), the government of Palestine will come to reflect the will of these people. = This is a basic long term strategy, and there are several interceding factors that will make this difficult, not least that part of Israel motivated = by extreme religious intolerance, militancy, and religious fervor. It is = this same group who ensured Hamas would become the organization it is = (blowback, etc.), and by perpetuating a climate of siege and war has also ensured = that the worst elements of Palestinian society would rule with Fatah. A very different kind of ethos needs to come to predominate in Israel if she = wants to see an eventual peaceful resolution. =20 I think it is important to see that there is very little possibility for anything noble to arise in Palestine now. The climate is such that any group that appears, say with a long term peaceful agenda, will be = destroyed from all sides by the competing criminal forces of Fatah, the religious fanatics of Hamas, and those sectors of the Israeli intelligence and military whose aim it is to ensure war and siege are perpetuated. The reason for this last - and it is a very important part of the larger equation - is that these elements are cunning but not wise, whose = motivation and intent is to "win" the war and control the whole region and to see = the Palestinian people removed from the area (except perhaps for a token few = who can be incorporated into the Israeli political machine without harm to = the integrity of the general Zionist project). Note, this is not the wish = or the motivation of the majority of Israelis, but it is that of a powerful subset, one that that has lived its entire life at war and under threat = from Arab interests and nations. Only great souls can free themselves from = the inevitable perspective a lifetime of war brings. =20 Nevertheless, an enlightened Israeli leadership could turn this ship = around to see real peace in a generation. It means simultaneously running a = real campaign to improve the lives of the Palestinians (ensuring water, = power, etc., but also ports and a general economic viability), and the needed = PR to show these intentions. It means playing a different game with the = rule of law in the world, such as the UN, and instead becoming the epitome = for civilized action and response. It means taking the difficult high = ground. It means finding alternative structures in time to police the area, it probably means working with some third nations and peace troops (not America, but maybe Norway, Canada, and Japan), it means looking to some = sort of short term treaty like JAMD, a finalized separation of states, a = return to 1967 borders, and perhaps even a little more (economic help/reparations?). =20 =20 These are all perhaps idealistic notions and do little to address the immediate problem or regular rocket attacks and suicide bombers. = However, I am convinced now that there are no short term solutions. None. There = are only long term difficult answers. What is clear is that the continued military oppression and total disregard for the principle of law will = only serve to exacerbate matters. =20 =20 It is the thinking of those elements in Israel noted above that they can = win this war by forcing the Palestinians to leave. Unfortunately, they are gravely mistaken in the their analysis of the situation. As technology continues to grow, there are enormously powerful weapons that will come = to be available to the Palestinians in time that will equalize the sides. Biological weapons and nanotechnology that will make nuclear weapons = look like toys. It will not be possible to control or police these things. = The current strategy will probably mean the destruction of Israel this = century. I am sure enough to bet good odds on this. =20 So, an enlightened Israeli leadership needs to recognize first that they must begin the hard work, because no such possibility can come from Palestine. They must work to support a peaceful environment in = Palestine that will lead to the natural appearance of stronger peaceful and lawful groups in Palestine, with whom real partnerships can be made, and in = time the number of suicide bombers will drop when there are real alternatives = to life in Palestine made possible instead of continual military = provocation. =20 =20 Note that I am written this short off the cuff analysis without = normative inferences. I make no claim of right or wrong on any side here. This is just real politick and the natural evolution of these states of affairs. =20 GreenLantern =20 **************************** E. R. Douglas Mobile (503) 998-9741 Fax (604) 357-1202 **************************** =20 -----Original Message----- From: pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org [mailto:pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of = Gary Acheatel Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:15 AM To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions =20 If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. =20 Here are the circumstances. =20 a. Hamas is the elected govt. =20 =20 b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's = right to exist. Neither does Fatah! =20 Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory = that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously = attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your = death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? =20 What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in = the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy = theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on = the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. =20 Gary ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69DC5.59FB2FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is exactly the kind of really = hard question that needs to be asked (and answered), both in = Israel = and in Palestine, = and well I guess here, too.

 

I don’t want to presume I can = answer it satisfactorily off the cuff here, but maybe just highlight a few = salient points.

 

It is vitally important that the leadership work towards winning the hearts and minds of the majority of Palestinian people.  In time, where there are democratic = structures, and they are there (though not perfect), the government of = Palestine = will come to reflect the will of these people.  This is a basic long term = strategy, and there are several interceding factors that will make this difficult, not = least that part of Israel motivated by extreme religious intolerance, militancy, and religious fervor.  It is this same = group who ensured Hamas would become the organization it is (blowback, etc.), and = by perpetuating a climate of siege and war has also ensured that the worst elements of Palestinian society would rule with Fatah.  A very = different kind of ethos needs to come to predominate in Israel = if she wants to see an eventual peaceful resolution.

 

I think it is important to see that = there is very little possibility for anything noble to arise in = Palestine = now.  The climate is such that any group that appears, say with a long term = peaceful agenda, will be destroyed from all sides by the competing criminal = forces of Fatah, the religious fanatics of Hamas, and those sectors of the Israeli = intelligence and military whose aim it is to ensure war and siege are = perpetuated.  The reason for this last – and it is a very important part of the = larger equation – is that these elements are cunning but not wise, whose motivation and intent is to “win” the war and control the = whole region and to see the Palestinian people removed from the area (except = perhaps for a token few who can be incorporated into the Israeli political = machine without harm to the integrity of the general Zionist project).  = Note, this is not the wish or the motivation of the majority of Israelis, but it is = that of a powerful subset, one that that has lived its entire life at war and = under threat from Arab interests and nations.  Only great souls can free themselves from the inevitable perspective a lifetime of war = brings.

 

Nevertheless, an enlightened = Israeli leadership could turn this ship around to see real peace in a = generation.  It means simultaneously running a real campaign to improve the lives of = the Palestinians (ensuring water, power, etc., but also  ports and a = general economic viability), and the needed PR to show these intentions.  = It means playing a different game with the rule of law in the world, such as the = UN, and instead becoming the epitome for civilized action and response.  It = means taking the difficult high ground.  It means finding alternative = structures in time to police the area, it probably means working with some third = nations and peace troops (not America, but maybe Norway, Canada, and Japan), it = means looking to some sort of short term treaty like JAMD, a finalized = separation of states, a return to 1967 borders, and perhaps even a little more = (economic help/reparations?). 

 

These are all perhaps idealistic = notions and do little to address the immediate problem or regular rocket attacks = and suicide bombers.  However, I am convinced now that there are no = short term solutions.  None.  There are only long term difficult = answers.  What is clear is that the continued military oppression and total = disregard for the principle of law will only serve to exacerbate matters.  =

 

It is the thinking of those = elements in Israel = noted above that they can win this war by forcing the Palestinians to leave.  Unfortunately, they are gravely mistaken in the their analysis of the situation.  As technology continues to grow, there are enormously = powerful weapons that will come to be available to the Palestinians in time that = will equalize the sides.  Biological weapons and nanotechnology that = will make nuclear weapons look like toys.  It will not be possible to control = or police these things.  The current strategy will probably mean the destruction of Israel this = century.  I am sure enough to bet good odds on this.

 

So, an enlightened Israeli = leadership needs to recognize first that they must begin the hard work, because no = such possibility can come from Palestine.  They = must work to support a peaceful environment in Palestine that will = lead to the natural appearance of stronger peaceful and lawful groups in = Palestine, = with whom real partnerships can be made, and in time the number of suicide bombers = will drop when there are real alternatives to life in Palestine = made possible instead of continual military provocation. 

 

Note that I am written this short = off the cuff analysis without normative inferences.  I make no claim of = right or wrong on any side here. This is just real politick and the natural = evolution of these states of affairs.

 

GreenLantern

 

****************************<= /font>

E. R. Douglas

Mobile (503) = 998-9741

Fax      = (604) 357-1202

****************************<= /font>

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org [mailto:pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of Gary = Acheatel
Sent: Sunday, July 02, = 2006 8:15 AM
To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org
Subject: = [Pgp-middle-east] solutions

 

If you were the head of = Israel, what would you do to bring about peace.

 

Here are the = circumstances.

 

    a. Hamas = is the elected govt. 

 

    b. Hamas = does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to exist. Neither = does Fatah!

 

 Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked you from? = Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and not = preventing maniacal terrorists?

 

What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the affirmative, I.E. not = what you don't do because that is too easy theoretical and easy to say if it is = not your children getting blown up on buses on the way to day camp.  Granted = also you want Palestinian justice.

 

Gary

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C69DC5.59FB2FF0-- From ashland@qwest.net Mon Jul 3 10:42:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7688846D0 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.569 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.569, BAYES_50=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id kLoTkdZa7R2q for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net (mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.112]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id A97B84127 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mpls-pop-06.inet.qwest.net (mpls-pop-06.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.6]) by mpls-qmqp-01.inet.qwest.net (Postfix) with QMQP id 281DA1A9B62 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 17:41:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 71-210-17-175.eugn.qwest.net (HELO laptop) (71.210.17.175) by mpls-pop-06.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 3 Jul 2006 17:41:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <005e01c69ec7$f0ad2f40$0300a8c0@laptop> From: "Gary Acheatel" To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org References: <20060703172310.998ED46D5@ulke.nakedape.cc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] Re: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 17:42:13 -0000 Are we not being a little condescending toward the Palistinians (Pali.) ? Should there not be some levels of responsibility on them in moving toward peace and requiring some minimum levels of behaviour? Are you guys suggesting (by ommission)that this would be beneath your expectations of their society? Is there some degree of 'cultural relativism' lurking here? If we accept there are radicals in Israel (a small minority) who prefer the status quo over peace with less territory, and expect the Israeli peace movment to dominate the Israeli scene, what are the expectations and minimum efforts we need to see from the Pali side to give some faith to those Israeli peacniks? Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:23 AM Subject: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 Send Pgp-middle-east mailing list submissions to pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pgp-middle-east-request@list.pacificgreens.org You can reach the person managing the list at pgp-middle-east-owner@list.pacificgreens.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Pgp-middle-east digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: solutions: end the occupation (PeteskiToo@aol.com) 2. Re: solutions: end the occupation (stevethegreen@riseup.net) 3. RE: solutions (E. R. Douglas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:54:42 EDT From: PeteskiToo@aol.com Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org Message-ID: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gary - Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian territory in the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including settlements, wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. The other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, has helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, including a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that and I find that troubling. The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The Colonization of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, regardless of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling the parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an end to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, this is a tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be exchanged as part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to be done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian people a feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of existential annihilation: 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements in Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will redirected to be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, like in Hebron. 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West bank and East Jerusalem 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to their lands. 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs are Sand Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and which I've seen with my own eyes. 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes clear that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have access to attorneys and know the charges against them. 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler violence and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children from going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, at long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the remaining territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus Palestinians on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the dynamic of the current situation. As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity to be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it will probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. For there to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree with the solution, including most members of militant groups. When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that you want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for justice for the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN resolutions. When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, you obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian side, 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some arbitrary 67 borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is really quite unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for Jews. After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. In our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women are created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing the Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious group, we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as Americans. Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" state for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special rights for certain ethnic groups. Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. Even though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out even more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove his fist, the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. On top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest is an "arbitrary" border! I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many others are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military actions. Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? Happy 4th of July! Sincerely, Peter ==================== Original Message ================ If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. Here are the circumstances. a. Hamas is the elected govt. b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to exist. Neither does Fatah! Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. Gary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/20060703/d4349718/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) From: stevethegreen@riseup.net Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org Message-ID: <3930.stevethegreen.1151946651.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Excellent insightful and detailed comments Peter! Thank you! -Steve > Gary - > Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical > point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian > territory in > the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including > settlements, > wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. > The > other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, > has > helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. > Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, > including > a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that and > I > find that troubling. > > The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The > Colonization > of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of > Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, > regardless > of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser > Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling > the > parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm > > So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an > end > to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, this > is a > tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state > solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be > exchanged as > part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to be > done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian > people a > feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of > existential > annihilation: > 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements > in > Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will redirected > to > be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. > 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. > 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, > like > in Hebron. > 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West > bank and East Jerusalem > 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the > choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and > Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to > their lands. > > 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against > Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs > are Sand > Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and > which I've > seen with my own eyes. > 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and > children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes > clear > that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have > access > to attorneys and know the charges against them. > 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians > 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns > 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler > violence > and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children > from > going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. > > These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, > at > long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the > remaining > territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a > concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus > Palestinians > on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the > dynamic > of the current situation. > > As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity > to > be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian > society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it > will > probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. > For there > to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree > with > the solution, including most members of militant groups. > > When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that > you > want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for > justice for > the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN > resolutions. > > When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, > you > obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian > side, > 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively > expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some > arbitrary 67 > borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the > ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is > really quite > unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. > 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for > Jews. > After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. > In > our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women > are > created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing > the > Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious > group, > we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as > Americans. > Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" > state > for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious > moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special > rights for > certain ethnic groups. > > Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. > Even > though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out > even > more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove his > fist, > the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. > On > top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest > is an > "arbitrary" border! > > I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many > others > are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military > actions. > Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? > > Happy 4th of July! > > Sincerely, > Peter > > > ==================== Original Message ================ > > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > Here are the circumstances. > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right > to > exist. Neither does Fatah! > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you > from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and > not > preventing maniacal terrorists? > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical and > easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the > way > to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > Gary > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:50:30 -0700 From: "E. R. Douglas" Subject: RE: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions To: Cc: waterbow@bezeqint.net Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is exactly the kind of really hard question that needs to be asked (and answered), both in Israel and in Palestine, and well I guess here, too. I don't want to presume I can answer it satisfactorily off the cuff here, but maybe just highlight a few salient points. It is vitally important that the leadership work towards winning the hearts and minds of the majority of Palestinian people. In time, where there are democratic structures, and they are there (though not perfect), the government of Palestine will come to reflect the will of these people. This is a basic long term strategy, and there are several interceding factors that will make this difficult, not least that part of Israel motivated by extreme religious intolerance, militancy, and religious fervor. It is this same group who ensured Hamas would become the organization it is (blowback, etc.), and by perpetuating a climate of siege and war has also ensured that the worst elements of Palestinian society would rule with Fatah. A very different kind of ethos needs to come to predominate in Israel if she wants to see an eventual peaceful resolution. I think it is important to see that there is very little possibility for anything noble to arise in Palestine now. The climate is such that any group that appears, say with a long term peaceful agenda, will be destroyed from all sides by the competing criminal forces of Fatah, the religious fanatics of Hamas, and those sectors of the Israeli intelligence and military whose aim it is to ensure war and siege are perpetuated. The reason for this last - and it is a very important part of the larger equation - is that these elements are cunning but not wise, whose motivation and intent is to "win" the war and control the whole region and to see the Palestinian people removed from the area (except perhaps for a token few who can be incorporated into the Israeli political machine without harm to the integrity of the general Zionist project). Note, this is not the wish or the motivation of the majority of Israelis, but it is that of a powerful subset, one that that has lived its entire life at war and under threat from Arab interests and nations. Only great souls can free themselves from the inevitable perspective a lifetime of war brings. Nevertheless, an enlightened Israeli leadership could turn this ship around to see real peace in a generation. It means simultaneously running a real campaign to improve the lives of the Palestinians (ensuring water, power, etc., but also ports and a general economic viability), and the needed PR to show these intentions. It means playing a different game with the rule of law in the world, such as the UN, and instead becoming the epitome for civilized action and response. It means taking the difficult high ground. It means finding alternative structures in time to police the area, it probably means working with some third nations and peace troops (not America, but maybe Norway, Canada, and Japan), it means looking to some sort of short term treaty like JAMD, a finalized separation of states, a return to 1967 borders, and perhaps even a little more (economic help/reparations?). These are all perhaps idealistic notions and do little to address the immediate problem or regular rocket attacks and suicide bombers. However, I am convinced now that there are no short term solutions. None. There are only long term difficult answers. What is clear is that the continued military oppression and total disregard for the principle of law will only serve to exacerbate matters. It is the thinking of those elements in Israel noted above that they can win this war by forcing the Palestinians to leave. Unfortunately, they are gravely mistaken in the their analysis of the situation. As technology continues to grow, there are enormously powerful weapons that will come to be available to the Palestinians in time that will equalize the sides. Biological weapons and nanotechnology that will make nuclear weapons look like toys. It will not be possible to control or police these things. The current strategy will probably mean the destruction of Israel this century. I am sure enough to bet good odds on this. So, an enlightened Israeli leadership needs to recognize first that they must begin the hard work, because no such possibility can come from Palestine. They must work to support a peaceful environment in Palestine that will lead to the natural appearance of stronger peaceful and lawful groups in Palestine, with whom real partnerships can be made, and in time the number of suicide bombers will drop when there are real alternatives to life in Palestine made possible instead of continual military provocation. Note that I am written this short off the cuff analysis without normative inferences. I make no claim of right or wrong on any side here. This is just real politick and the natural evolution of these states of affairs. GreenLantern **************************** E. R. Douglas Mobile (503) 998-9741 Fax (604) 357-1202 **************************** -----Original Message----- From: pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org [mailto:pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of Gary Acheatel Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:15 AM To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. Here are the circumstances. a. Hamas is the elected govt. b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right to exist. Neither does Fatah! Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory that now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and not preventing maniacal terrorists? What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy theoretical and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. Gary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/20060702/8d7c1781/attachment.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Pgp-middle-east mailing list Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east End of Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 ********************************************* From stevethegreen@riseup.net Mon Jul 3 12:12:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id E394446EB for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.974 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_50=0.001, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 6kAqrl+j6Rcj for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (buffy.riseup.net [208.99.202.32]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0AF3940EE for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9927A2E51 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (buffy [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17775-15 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.riseup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764B1A2D98 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user stevethegreen) by mail.riseup.net with HTTP; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2479.stevethegreen.1151953828.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <005e01c69ec7$f0ad2f40$0300a8c0@laptop> References: <20060703172310.998ED46D5@ulke.nakedape.cc> <005e01c69ec7$f0ad2f40$0300a8c0@laptop> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] Re: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 From: stevethegreen@riseup.net To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at riseup.net X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:12:47 -0000 Gary- > Are we not being a little condescending toward the Palistinians (Pali.) ? > Should there not be some levels of responsibility on them in moving toward > peace and requiring some minimum levels of behaviour? Are you guys > suggesting (by ommission)that this would be beneath your expectations of > their society? Is there some degree of 'cultural relativism' lurking here? When you speak of "responsibility" toward the Palestinians, I think you speak the truth. And for the record..... Speaking for myself, I did not mean to imply that there exists any "cultural relativism" that excuses the actions of the Palestinians. But I do think that any analysis of what constitutes "terrorism" that does not take into account the poverty and absense of any real military by the Palestinians is an incomplete and faulty one. I believe that the majority of your comments in this area do exactly that. War is a terrible thing. Killing people is a terrible thing. But to suggest that killing people with tanks and helicopter gunships is morally superior to a suicide bombing is in my opinion an example of ultra-bias that renders the Palestinian people with no viable option to fight back against their oppressors. > If we accept there are radicals in Israel (a small minority) who prefer > the > status quo over peace with less territory, and expect the Israeli peace > movment to dominate the Israeli scene, what are the expectations and > minimum > efforts we need to see from the Pali side to give some faith to those > Israeli peacniks? There are some who believe that the "power elite" in Israel have no interest in achieving a real and lasting peace with the Palestinians. So when you characterize the "radicals" in Israel as being small in number and when you characterize the Palestinians as radicals who do not want peace, you should not be surprised when you are met with alot of opposition to that approach. I believe the majority of the Israeli and Palestinian people want peace, but that their are factions on both sides that will do what ever it takes to insure they destroy the peace process. Your comments make it sound like it is the Palestinians who don't really want peace. Your analysis ignores the numerous blatant acts of aggression and the overkill reactions to Palestinian actions by the Israeli government, not to mention the issue of illegal settlements which you seem to consistantly ignore. Bottom line is that Israel's military and military capability is so much more advanced and superior to that of the Palestinians that there no longer exists the justification of the occupation being about Israeli security. If the government of Israel really seeks a true and lasting peace, they alone have the power to put the burden of proof on the Palestinians. If they return to the 1967 borders and they dismantle the illegal settlements and the checkpoints and the walls and the disgusting treatment of the Palestinian people, they then transfer the burden for maintaining peace to the Palestinian people. I believe that once that takes place, the Palestinian people will not support the radicals who insist on Israel's demise. The first step must be taken by Israel and it needs to be unconditional. For Israel to demand that Palestinian leaders state that Israel has a right to exist is a non-sequitor that is used to maintain tension where it need not exist. Israel does exist and will continue to exist and will have the support of the American people to defend itself, including mine. But they must first do the right thing. They must do so unconditionally. They must do it now. -Steve Geiger > Gary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:23 AM > Subject: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 > > > Send Pgp-middle-east mailing list submissions to > pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pgp-middle-east-request@list.pacificgreens.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pgp-middle-east-owner@list.pacificgreens.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pgp-middle-east digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: solutions: end the occupation (PeteskiToo@aol.com) > 2. Re: solutions: end the occupation (stevethegreen@riseup.net) > 3. RE: solutions (E. R. Douglas) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:54:42 EDT > From: PeteskiToo@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Message-ID: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Gary - > Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical > point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian > territory > in > the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including > settlements, > wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. > The > other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, > has > helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. > Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, > including > a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that and > I > find that troubling. > > The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The > Colonization > of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of > Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, > regardless > of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser > Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling > the > parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm > > So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an > end > to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, this > is > a > tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state > solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be > exchanged as > part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to be > done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian > people a > feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of > existential > annihilation: > 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements > in > Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will redirected > to > be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. > 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. > 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, > like > in Hebron. > 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West > bank and East Jerusalem > 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the > choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and > Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to > their lands. > > 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against > Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs > are > Sand > Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and > which I've > seen with my own eyes. > 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and > children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes > clear > that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have > access > to attorneys and know the charges against them. > 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians > 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns > 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler > violence > and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children > from > going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. > > These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, > at > long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the > remaining > territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a > concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus > Palestinians > on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the > dynamic > of the current situation. > > As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity > to > be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian > society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it > will > probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. > For there > to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree > with > the solution, including most members of militant groups. > > When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that > you > want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for > justice > for > the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN > resolutions. > > When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, > you > obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian > side, > 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively > expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some > arbitrary 67 > borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the > ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is > really > quite > unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. > 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for > Jews. > After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. > In > our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women > are > created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing > the > Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious > group, > we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as > Americans. > Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" > state > for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious > moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special > rights > for > certain ethnic groups. > > Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. > Even > though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out > even > more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove his > fist, > the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. > On > top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest > is > an > "arbitrary" border! > > I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many > others > are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military > actions. > Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? > > Happy 4th of July! > > Sincerely, > Peter > > > ==================== Original Message ================ > > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > Here are the circumstances. > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right > to > exist. Neither does Fatah! > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you > from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and > not > preventing maniacal terrorists? > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical > and > easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the > way > to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > Gary > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/20060703/d4349718/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: stevethegreen@riseup.net > Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Message-ID: <3930.stevethegreen.1151946651.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > Excellent insightful and detailed comments Peter! > > Thank you! > > -Steve > >> Gary - >> Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a >> critical >> point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian >> territory in >> the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including >> settlements, >> wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. >> The >> other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not >> perfect, >> has >> helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against >> Israelis. >> Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, >> including >> a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that >> and >> I >> find that troubling. >> >> The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The >> Colonization >> of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of >> Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy >> Land, >> regardless >> of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by >> Yasser >> Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas >> controlling >> the >> parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm >> >> So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an >> end >> to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, >> this >> is a >> tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state >> solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be >> exchanged as >> part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to >> be >> done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian >> people a >> feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of >> existential >> annihilation: >> 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements >> in >> Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will >> redirected >> to >> be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. >> 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. >> 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, >> like >> in Hebron. >> 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the >> West >> bank and East Jerusalem >> 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially >> the >> choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and >> Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to >> their lands. >> >> 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against >> Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs >> are Sand >> Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron >> and >> which I've >> seen with my own eyes. >> 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women >> and >> children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes >> clear >> that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have >> access >> to attorneys and know the charges against them. >> 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians >> 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns >> 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler >> violence >> and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children >> from >> going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. >> >> These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians >> that, >> at >> long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the >> remaining >> territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a >> concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus >> Palestinians >> on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the >> dynamic >> of the current situation. >> >> As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity >> to >> be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of >> Palestinian >> society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it >> will >> probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst >> Palestinians. >> For there >> to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree >> with >> the solution, including most members of militant groups. >> >> When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that >> you >> want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for >> justice for >> the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and >> UN >> resolutions. >> >> When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, >> you >> obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian >> side, >> 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is >> actively >> expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some >> arbitrary 67 >> borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the >> ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is >> really quite >> unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. >> 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for >> Jews. >> After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. >> In >> our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women >> are >> created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing >> the >> Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious >> group, >> we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as >> Americans. >> Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" >> state >> for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are >> serious >> moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special >> rights for >> certain ethnic groups. >> >> Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. >> Even >> though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out >> even >> more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove >> his >> fist, >> the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. >> On >> top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's >> nest >> is an >> "arbitrary" border! >> >> I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many >> others >> are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military >> actions. >> Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? >> >> Happy 4th of July! >> >> Sincerely, >> Peter >> >> >> ==================== Original Message ================ >> >> If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. >> Here are the circumstances. >> a. Hamas is the elected govt. >> b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right >> to >> exist. Neither does Fatah! >> Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory >> that >> now protects your population centers that your enemies previously >> attacked >> you >> from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death >> and >> not >> preventing maniacal terrorists? >> What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in >> the >> affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy >> theoretical and >> easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the >> way >> to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. >> Gary >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pgp-middle-east mailing list >> Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org >> http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:50:30 -0700 > From: "E. R. Douglas" > Subject: RE: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions > To: > Cc: waterbow@bezeqint.net > Message-ID: > AAAAZkztDWbFdkCfelvYAXAVtwEAAAAA@taotetao.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is exactly the kind of really hard question that needs to be asked > (and > answered), both in Israel and in Palestine, and well I guess here, too. > > > > I don't want to presume I can answer it satisfactorily off the cuff here, > but maybe just highlight a few salient points. > > > > It is vitally important that the leadership work towards winning the > hearts > and minds of the majority of Palestinian people. In time, where there are > democratic structures, and they are there (though not perfect), the > government of Palestine will come to reflect the will of these people. > This > is a basic long term strategy, and there are several interceding factors > that will make this difficult, not least that part of Israel motivated by > extreme religious intolerance, militancy, and religious fervor. It is > this > same group who ensured Hamas would become the organization it is > (blowback, > etc.), and by perpetuating a climate of siege and war has also ensured > that > the worst elements of Palestinian society would rule with Fatah. A very > different kind of ethos needs to come to predominate in Israel if she > wants > to see an eventual peaceful resolution. > > > > I think it is important to see that there is very little possibility for > anything noble to arise in Palestine now. The climate is such that any > group that appears, say with a long term peaceful agenda, will be > destroyed > from all sides by the competing criminal forces of Fatah, the religious > fanatics of Hamas, and those sectors of the Israeli intelligence and > military whose aim it is to ensure war and siege are perpetuated. The > reason for this last - and it is a very important part of the larger > equation - is that these elements are cunning but not wise, whose > motivation > and intent is to "win" the war and control the whole region and to see the > Palestinian people removed from the area (except perhaps for a token few > who > can be incorporated into the Israeli political machine without harm to the > integrity of the general Zionist project). Note, this is not the wish or > the motivation of the majority of Israelis, but it is that of a powerful > subset, one that that has lived its entire life at war and under threat > from > Arab interests and nations. Only great souls can free themselves from the > inevitable perspective a lifetime of war brings. > > > > Nevertheless, an enlightened Israeli leadership could turn this ship > around > to see real peace in a generation. It means simultaneously running a real > campaign to improve the lives of the Palestinians (ensuring water, power, > etc., but also ports and a general economic viability), and the needed PR > to show these intentions. It means playing a different game with the rule > of law in the world, such as the UN, and instead becoming the epitome for > civilized action and response. It means taking the difficult high ground. > It means finding alternative structures in time to police the area, it > probably means working with some third nations and peace troops (not > America, but maybe Norway, Canada, and Japan), it means looking to some > sort > of short term treaty like JAMD, a finalized separation of states, a return > to 1967 borders, and perhaps even a little more (economic > help/reparations?). > > > > These are all perhaps idealistic notions and do little to address the > immediate problem or regular rocket attacks and suicide bombers. However, > I > am convinced now that there are no short term solutions. None. There are > only long term difficult answers. What is clear is that the continued > military oppression and total disregard for the principle of law will only > serve to exacerbate matters. > > > > It is the thinking of those elements in Israel noted above that they can > win > this war by forcing the Palestinians to leave. Unfortunately, they are > gravely mistaken in the their analysis of the situation. As technology > continues to grow, there are enormously powerful weapons that will come to > be available to the Palestinians in time that will equalize the sides. > Biological weapons and nanotechnology that will make nuclear weapons look > like toys. It will not be possible to control or police these things. > The > current strategy will probably mean the destruction of Israel this > century. > I am sure enough to bet good odds on this. > > > > So, an enlightened Israeli leadership needs to recognize first that they > must begin the hard work, because no such possibility can come from > Palestine. They must work to support a peaceful environment in Palestine > that will lead to the natural appearance of stronger peaceful and lawful > groups in Palestine, with whom real partnerships can be made, and in time > the number of suicide bombers will drop when there are real alternatives > to > life in Palestine made possible instead of continual military provocation. > > > > Note that I am written this short off the cuff analysis without normative > inferences. I make no claim of right or wrong on any side here. This is > just real politick and the natural evolution of these states of affairs. > > > > GreenLantern > > > > **************************** > > E. R. Douglas > > Mobile (503) 998-9741 > > Fax (604) 357-1202 > > **************************** > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org > [mailto:pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of Gary > Acheatel > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:15 AM > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions > > > > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > > > > Here are the circumstances. > > > > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > > > > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's > right > to exist. Neither does Fatah! > > > > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death > and not preventing maniacal terrorists? > > > > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical > and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on > the > way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > > > > Gary > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/20060702/8d7c1781/attachment.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > > > End of Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 > ********************************************* > > _______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > From ashland@qwest.net Tue Jul 4 09:28:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id DF0F04706 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 0.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.798 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=0.798, BAYES_50=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Gl1cCB+r4YLW for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mpls-qmqp-02.inet.qwest.net (mpls-qmqp-02.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.113]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4A65F4075 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mpls-pop-07.inet.qwest.net (mpls-pop-07.inet.qwest.net [63.231.195.7]) by mpls-qmqp-02.inet.qwest.net (Postfix) with QMQP id 515694615E7 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 16:28:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 71-210-17-175.eugn.qwest.net (HELO laptop) (71.210.17.175) by mpls-pop-07.inet.qwest.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 2006 16:27:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:27:43 -0700 Message-ID: <018301c69f86$c7410900$0300a8c0@laptop> From: "Gary Acheatel" To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org References: <20060703191249.5721840EE@ulke.nakedape.cc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] Re: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:28:30 -0000 Steve, good to see you participating and that this also is important to you. I will respond in caps for expediency not emphasis. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:12 PM Subject: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6 Send Pgp-middle-east mailing list submissions to pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pgp-middle-east-request@list.pacificgreens.org You can reach the person managing the list at pgp-middle-east-owner@list.pacificgreens.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Pgp-middle-east digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 (stevethegreen@riseup.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) From: stevethegreen@riseup.net Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] Re: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org Message-ID: <2479.stevethegreen.1151953828.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Gary- > Are we not being a little condescending toward the Palistinians (Pali.) ? > Should there not be some levels of responsibility on them in moving toward > peace and requiring some minimum levels of behaviour? Are you guys > suggesting (by ommission)that this would be beneath your expectations of > their society? Is there some degree of 'cultural relativism' lurking here? When you speak of "responsibility" toward the Palestinians, I think you speak the truth. And for the record..... Speaking for myself, I did not mean to imply that there exists any "cultural relativism" that excuses the actions of the Palestinians. But I do think that any analysis of what constitutes "terrorism" that does not take into account the poverty and absense of any real military by the Palestinians is an incomplete and faulty one. TERRORISM IS SPECIFIC. TARGETING CIVILIANS IS BELOW ANYONE'S BASELINE OF CIVILITY. POVERTY IS TERRIBLE BUT DOES NOT EXCUSE TERRORISM WHEN THERE ARE ACTIVE PEACE PARTNERS AVAILABLE FOR NEGOTIATIONS. ISRAEL HAS CONTINUOUSLY HELD OUT PEACE OPTIONS, PERHAPS NOT TO THE EXACT LIKING OF THE OTHERSIDE BUT NOTHING TO SNEEZE AT EITHER. ARAFAT WALKED AWAY FROM 95% OF WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY SEEKING. THIS OCCURED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CAMP DAVID TALKS HELD AT THE END OF CLINTON'S ADMINISTRATION. HE THEN UNLEASHED THE II INTIFIDAH WHICH WE ARE STILL FEELING TODAY. READ DENNIS ROSS WHO EXPLAINS IN GREAT DETAIL IT WAS AT THAT POINT THE U.S. ALSO REALIZED THE PALIS WERE NOT BARGAINING IN GOOD FAITH. ONCE AGAIN THE PALI PEOPLE SUFFER BECAUSE OF THEIR LEADERSHIP. I believe that the majority of your comments in this area do exactly that. War is a terrible thing. Killing people is a terrible thing. But to suggest that killing people with tanks and helicopter gunships is morally superior to a suicide bombing is in my opinion an example of ultra-bias that renders the Palestinian people with no viable option to fight back against their oppressors. YOU MAKE IT TOO SIMPLE, GO BACK TO THE 'INTENT' ARGUMENT. ISRAELIS HAVE SUFFERED NUMEROUS CASUALTIES BECAUSE OF THEIR PURPOSEFUL AVOIDANCE OF INFLICTING CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. I KNOW IT DOESN'T APPEAR SO BASED ON YOUR PARTICUALAR READINGS, BUT I KNOW THIS FIRST HAND AND THRE ARE MANY NUMEROUS ACCOUNTS OF THIS. READ THE TRUTH ABOUT JENIN. YOU WON'T GET THE TRUTH RE. THIS MATTTER FROM YOUR TYPICAL SOURCES WHO WANT YOU TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE. > If we accept there are radicals in Israel (a small minority) who prefer > the > status quo over peace with less territory, and expect the Israeli peace > movment to dominate the Israeli scene, what are the expectations and > minimum > efforts we need to see from the Pali side to give some faith to those > Israeli peacniks? There are some who believe that the "power elite" in Israel have no interest in achieving a real and lasting peace with the Palestinians. So when you characterize the "radicals" in Israel as being small in number and when you characterize the Palestinians as radicals who do not want peace, you should not be surprised when you are met with alot of opposition to that approach. I believe the majority of the Israeli and Palestinian people want peace, but that their are factions on both sides that will do what ever it takes to insure they destroy the peace process. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE ISRAELIS CONTAIN THEIR RADICALS AND THE RULE OF LAW PREVAILS. ISRAEL IS AND HAS BEEN READY TO TALK COMPROMISE. Your comments make it sound like it is the Palestinians who don't really want peace. SORRY FOR YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING. I KNOW MOST PALIS WANT PEACE. Your analysis ignores the numerous blatant acts of aggression and the overkill reactions to Palestinian actions by the Israeli government, not to mention the issue of illegal settlements which you seem to consistantly ignore. YOU CALL IT OVERKILL BUT WHEN YOU LIVE WITH THE EQUIVILENT OF 1 9/11 PER MONTH FOR 3 YEARS YOU WOULDN'T THINK IT OVERKILL ANYMORE. I HAVE WRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT MY DISAGREEMENT RE. SETTLEMENTS. I THINK THEY WERE AND ARE A MISTAKE. THEY ARE A PR BLUNDER AND UNECESSARY. THE ARMY SIMPLY SHOULD HAVE OUTPOSTS AND BASES IN THE TERRITORIES UNTIL PEACE SETTLEMENTS ARE ACHIEVED. Bottom line is that Israel's military and military capability is so much more advanced and superior to that of the Palestinians that there no longer exists the justification of the occupation being about Israeli security. WRONG!! YOU MUST GO THERE AND SEE THE PROXIMITY OF ENEMY LINES TO ISRAEL'S MAJOR POPULATION CENTERS. FOR EXAMPLE THE 67 BORDERS. ALLEYS SEPERATED EAST FROM WEST JERUSALEM. THE CENTER OF THE COUNTRY IS 9 MILES WIDE FROM ARAB LANDS TO THE SEA NEAR TEL AVIV. THE REASON AIPAC IS SO EFFECTIVE WITH OUR CONGRESSPEOPLE IS THEIR ABILITY TO EXPLAIN AND SHOW ISRAEL'S DIRE SECURITY NEEDS. YOU MIGHT THINK YOU ARE A BETTER EXPERT ON THESE MATTERS THAN 90% OF CONGRESS WHO VOTE FOR MILITARY APPROBRIATIONS BUY OF COURSE YOU'LL ANSWER THEY ARE ALL BRIBED BY THE JEWISH LOBBY. PERHAPS YOU TOO MIGHT COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSIONS ONCE YOU SEE THE FACTS ON THE GROUND. IF THE ARABS WERE SINCERE AND WANTED PEACE WHY DID THEY MAKE WAR IN 67? NOW YOU DEMAND ISRAELIS SHOULD BELIEVE THEM WITHOUT THEM EVEN CHANGING THEIR CHARTER STILL CALLING FOR HER ANNHILATION. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE IMBALLANCE, THIS IS PLAIN STUPID. If the government of Israel really seeks a true and lasting peace, they alone have the power to put the burden of proof on the Palestinians. If they return to the 1967 borders and they dismantle the illegal settlements and the checkpoints and the walls and the disgusting treatment of the Palestinian people, they then transfer the burden for maintaining peace to the Palestinian people. THEY JUST DID THIS IN GAZA. WHY BE SO NAIVE? READ THEIR CHARTER, LOOK AT THEIR ACTIONS. THE NEED FOR A BURDEN OF PROOF SUGGESTS THE SITUATION IS UNCLEAR & MURKY. PALI LEADERSHIP WORDS AND ACTIONS ARE PERFECTLY CLEAR. THERE NEEDS NO MORE ISRAELI BLOOD SPILT TO CLARIFY THIS TO PEOPLE NEW TO THIS CONFLICT AND UNFAMILIAR WITH PALI LEADERSHIP'S EXPRESSED AIMS. THE BURDEN OF PROOF MUST COME FROM THEIR SIDE. ISRAEL CANNOT IMPOSE MODERATION ON THE PALIS, THE WORLD MUST ASSIST THEM IN ROOTING OUT THEIR RADICALS. THEN PEACE CAN ENSUE. STEVE, I SERIOUSLY SUGGEST YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE FORMIDABLE FINANCIAL INTERESTS THAT ARE SABATOGING PEACE EFFORTS. THEY CARE LITTLE FOR THE PALI PEOPLE. THE SOURCES TODAY ARE: IRAN SYRIA 4 GENERATIONS OF PALIS ON MILITIA PAYROLLS WHO ONLY HAVE THIS WAY OF MAKING A LIVING. PREVIOUSLY IT WAS SYRIA, & THE MOSLEM BROTHERHOOD OPERATING OUT OF EGYPT AND OTHER COUNTRIES. I believe that once that takes place, the Palestinian people will not support the radicals who insist on Israel's demise. YOU HAVE NO BASIS FOR THIS BELIEF. The first step must be taken by Israel and it needs to be unconditional. For Israel to demand that Palestinian leaders state that Israel has a right to exist is a non-sequitor that is used to maintain tension where it need not exist. Israel does exist and will continue to exist and will have the support of the American people to defend itself, including mine. But they must first do the right thing. They must do so unconditionally. They must do it now. THERE IS NO POINT TO DOING SO. AS SAD AS IT IS FOR ME THERE IS NO SOLUTION IN SITE. ISRAEL UNCONDITIONALLY RETURNING LANDS TO THE 67 BORDER JUST EMBOLDENS THE ARAB RADICALS. THEIR AND YOUR DEFINITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORY IS DIFFERENT AND ISRAEL KNOWS AND HAS LIVED THE TRUTH, BECAUSE OF THE INSANITY YOU GRAVITATE TO AN OVERLY SIMPLISTIC NOTION I USED TO BELIEVE IN TOO WHICH IS, TRADE LAND FOR PEACE. TOO MANY OF THOSE IN CONTROL WANT ALL THE LAND HENCE, IT IS A FALSE NOTION. DON'T FORGET THEY HAD THE LAND AND HAVE BEEN OFFERED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE LAST NEGOTIATION 95% OF THE LAND. I CAN'T SEE WHERE YOUR NOTIONS HAVE ANY BASIS IN REALITY. YES ITS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR BOTH SIDES, BUT ISRAEL IF FLOROISHING AND PALIS AREN'T, SO IT IS IMCUMBENT FOR THEM TO GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER AND STAMP OUT THEIR RADICALS. UNTIL THEN, IT WILL BE STATUS QUO EVEN THOUGH ISRAELIS ARE SICK OF FIGHTING THERE REMAINS NO OTHER OPTION ESPECIALLY THIS SUICIDAL ONE YOU PROPOSE. -Steve Geiger > Gary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:23 AM > Subject: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 > > > Send Pgp-middle-east mailing list submissions to > pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pgp-middle-east-request@list.pacificgreens.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pgp-middle-east-owner@list.pacificgreens.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pgp-middle-east digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: solutions: end the occupation (PeteskiToo@aol.com) > 2. Re: solutions: end the occupation (stevethegreen@riseup.net) > 3. RE: solutions (E. R. Douglas) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:54:42 EDT > From: PeteskiToo@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Message-ID: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Gary - > Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical > point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian > territory > in > the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including > settlements, > wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. > The > other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, > has > helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. > Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, > including > a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that and > I > find that troubling. > > The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The > Colonization > of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of > Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, > regardless > of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser > Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling > the > parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm > > So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an > end > to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, this > is > a > tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state > solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be > exchanged as > part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to be > done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian > people a > feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of > existential > annihilation: > 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements > in > Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will redirected > to > be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. > 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. > 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, > like > in Hebron. > 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West > bank and East Jerusalem > 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the > choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and > Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to > their lands. > > 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against > Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs > are > Sand > Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and > which I've > seen with my own eyes. > 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and > children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes > clear > that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have > access > to attorneys and know the charges against them. > 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians > 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns > 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler > violence > and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children > from > going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. > > These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, > at > long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the > remaining > territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a > concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus > Palestinians > on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the > dynamic > of the current situation. > > As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity > to > be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian > society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it > will > probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. > For there > to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree > with > the solution, including most members of militant groups. > > When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that > you > want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for > justice > for > the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN > resolutions. > > When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, > you > obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian > side, > 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively > expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some > arbitrary 67 > borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the > ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is > really > quite > unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. > 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for > Jews. > After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. > In > our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women > are > created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing > the > Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious > group, > we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as > Americans. > Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" > state > for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious > moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special > rights > for > certain ethnic groups. > > Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. > Even > though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out > even > more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove his > fist, > the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. > On > top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest > is > an > "arbitrary" border! > > I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many > others > are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military > actions. > Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? > > Happy 4th of July! > > Sincerely, > Peter > > > ==================== Original Message ================ > > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > Here are the circumstances. > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right > to > exist. Neither does Fatah! > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you > from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and > not > preventing maniacal terrorists? > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical > and > easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the > way > to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > Gary > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/20060703/d4349718/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: stevethegreen@riseup.net > Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Message-ID: <3930.stevethegreen.1151946651.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > Excellent insightful and detailed comments Peter! > > Thank you! > > -Steve > >> Gary - >> Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a >> critical >> point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian >> territory in >> the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including >> settlements, >> wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. >> The >> other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not >> perfect, >> has >> helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against >> Israelis. >> Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, >> including >> a large number of women and children. You don't seem to realize that >> and >> I >> find that troubling. >> >> The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The >> Colonization >> of Palestine Precludes Peace." He stated that "Israel's occupation of >> Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy >> Land, >> regardless >> of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by >> Yasser >> Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas >> controlling >> the >> parliament and cabinet." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.htm >> >> So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an >> end >> to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements. Obviously, >> this >> is a >> tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state >> solution. Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be >> exchanged as >> part of a peace agreement, but steps similar to the following need to >> be >> done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian >> people a >> feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of >> existential >> annihilation: >> 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements >> in >> Palestinian areas. If wall construction must continue, it will >> redirected >> to >> be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. >> 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. >> 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, >> like >> in Hebron. >> 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the >> West >> bank and East Jerusalem >> 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially >> the >> choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and >> Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to >> their lands. >> >> 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against >> Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs >> are Sand >> Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron >> and >> which I've >> seen with my own eyes. >> 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women >> and >> children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes >> clear >> that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have >> access >> to attorneys and know the charges against them. >> 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians >> 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns >> 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler >> violence >> and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children >> from >> going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. >> >> These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians >> that, >> at >> long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the >> remaining >> territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine. This, coupled with a >> concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus >> Palestinians >> on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the >> dynamic >> of the current situation. >> >> As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity >> to >> be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of >> Palestinian >> society. After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas, it >> will >> probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst >> Palestinians. >> For there >> to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree >> with >> the solution, including most members of militant groups. >> >> When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that >> you >> want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for >> justice for >> the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and >> UN >> resolutions. >> >> When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, >> you >> obviously touch on a number of important issues. From the Palestinian >> side, >> 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is >> actively >> expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some >> arbitrary 67 >> borders?" Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on the >> ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is >> really quite >> unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. >> 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for >> Jews. >> After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians. >> In >> our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women >> are >> created equal and value the separation of church from state. By forcing >> the >> Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious >> group, >> we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as >> Americans. >> Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" >> state >> for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are >> serious >> moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special >> rights for >> certain ethnic groups. >> >> Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest. >> Even >> though he is being stung, he fears that removing his fist will let out >> even >> more hornets, which is certainly possible. But, until he does remove >> his >> fist, >> the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him. >> On >> top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's >> nest >> is an >> "arbitrary" border! >> >> I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many >> others >> are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military >> actions. >> Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? >> >> Happy 4th of July! >> >> Sincerely, >> Peter >> >> >> ==================== Original Message ================ >> >> If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. >> Here are the circumstances. >> a. Hamas is the elected govt. >> b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right >> to >> exist. Neither does Fatah! >> Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory >> that >> now protects your population centers that your enemies previously >> attacked >> you >> from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death >> and >> not >> preventing maniacal terrorists? >> What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in >> the >> affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy >> theoretical and >> easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the >> way >> to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. >> Gary >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pgp-middle-east mailing list >> Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org >> http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:50:30 -0700 > From: "E. R. Douglas" > Subject: RE: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions > To: > Cc: waterbow@bezeqint.net > Message-ID: > AAAAZkztDWbFdkCfelvYAXAVtwEAAAAA@taotetao.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is exactly the kind of really hard question that needs to be asked > (and > answered), both in Israel and in Palestine, and well I guess here, too. > > > > I don't want to presume I can answer it satisfactorily off the cuff here, > but maybe just highlight a few salient points. > > > > It is vitally important that the leadership work towards winning the > hearts > and minds of the majority of Palestinian people. In time, where there are > democratic structures, and they are there (though not perfect), the > government of Palestine will come to reflect the will of these people. > This > is a basic long term strategy, and there are several interceding factors > that will make this difficult, not least that part of Israel motivated by > extreme religious intolerance, militancy, and religious fervor. It is > this > same group who ensured Hamas would become the organization it is > (blowback, > etc.), and by perpetuating a climate of siege and war has also ensured > that > the worst elements of Palestinian society would rule with Fatah. A very > different kind of ethos needs to come to predominate in Israel if she > wants > to see an eventual peaceful resolution. > > > > I think it is important to see that there is very little possibility for > anything noble to arise in Palestine now. The climate is such that any > group that appears, say with a long term peaceful agenda, will be > destroyed > from all sides by the competing criminal forces of Fatah, the religious > fanatics of Hamas, and those sectors of the Israeli intelligence and > military whose aim it is to ensure war and siege are perpetuated. The > reason for this last - and it is a very important part of the larger > equation - is that these elements are cunning but not wise, whose > motivation > and intent is to "win" the war and control the whole region and to see the > Palestinian people removed from the area (except perhaps for a token few > who > can be incorporated into the Israeli political machine without harm to the > integrity of the general Zionist project). Note, this is not the wish or > the motivation of the majority of Israelis, but it is that of a powerful > subset, one that that has lived its entire life at war and under threat > from > Arab interests and nations. Only great souls can free themselves from the > inevitable perspective a lifetime of war brings. > > > > Nevertheless, an enlightened Israeli leadership could turn this ship > around > to see real peace in a generation. It means simultaneously running a real > campaign to improve the lives of the Palestinians (ensuring water, power, > etc., but also ports and a general economic viability), and the needed PR > to show these intentions. It means playing a different game with the rule > of law in the world, such as the UN, and instead becoming the epitome for > civilized action and response. It means taking the difficult high ground. > It means finding alternative structures in time to police the area, it > probably means working with some third nations and peace troops (not > America, but maybe Norway, Canada, and Japan), it means looking to some > sort > of short term treaty like JAMD, a finalized separation of states, a return > to 1967 borders, and perhaps even a little more (economic > help/reparations?). > > > > These are all perhaps idealistic notions and do little to address the > immediate problem or regular rocket attacks and suicide bombers. However, > I > am convinced now that there are no short term solutions. None. There are > only long term difficult answers. What is clear is that the continued > military oppression and total disregard for the principle of law will only > serve to exacerbate matters. > > > > It is the thinking of those elements in Israel noted above that they can > win > this war by forcing the Palestinians to leave. Unfortunately, they are > gravely mistaken in the their analysis of the situation. As technology > continues to grow, there are enormously powerful weapons that will come to > be available to the Palestinians in time that will equalize the sides. > Biological weapons and nanotechnology that will make nuclear weapons look > like toys. It will not be possible to control or police these things. > The > current strategy will probably mean the destruction of Israel this > century. > I am sure enough to bet good odds on this. > > > > So, an enlightened Israeli leadership needs to recognize first that they > must begin the hard work, because no such possibility can come from > Palestine. They must work to support a peaceful environment in Palestine > that will lead to the natural appearance of stronger peaceful and lawful > groups in Palestine, with whom real partnerships can be made, and in time > the number of suicide bombers will drop when there are real alternatives > to > life in Palestine made possible instead of continual military provocation. > > > > Note that I am written this short off the cuff analysis without normative > inferences. I make no claim of right or wrong on any side here. This is > just real politick and the natural evolution of these states of affairs. > > > > GreenLantern > > > > **************************** > > E. R. Douglas > > Mobile (503) 998-9741 > > Fax (604) 357-1202 > > **************************** > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org > [mailto:pgp-middle-east-bounces@list.pacificgreens.org] On Behalf Of Gary > Acheatel > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:15 AM > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Subject: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions > > > > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > > > > Here are the circumstances. > > > > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > > > > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's > right > to exist. Neither does Fatah! > > > > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory > that > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death > and not preventing maniacal terrorists? > > > > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy > theoretical > and easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on > the > way to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > > > > Gary > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/20060702/8d7c1781/attachment.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > > > End of Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 > ********************************************* > > _______________________________________________ > Pgp-middle-east mailing list > Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Pgp-middle-east mailing list Pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east End of Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 6 ********************************************* From PeteskiToo@aol.com Tue Jul 4 09:34:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Delivered-To: pgp-middle-east@ulke.nakedape.cc Received: from localhost (unknown [192.168.1.11]) by localhost.nakedape.priv (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0DD2F4706 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:34:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by Naked Ape Mail Defender at nakedape.cc X-Spam-Score: 1.823 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.823 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[AWL=-0.490, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_10_20=1.351, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961, SPF_PASS=-0.001] Received: from ulke.nakedape.cc ([192.168.1.18]) by localhost (vidarnakedape.cc [192.168.1.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xzYX3q3J7HPf for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:34:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Greylist: delayed 310 seconds by postgrey-1.23 at vidar; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 09:34:02 PDT Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by ulke.nakedape.cc (Naked Ape Mail Server) with ESMTP id 13D734075 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PeteskiToo@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.5.) id s.3c8.4756c0d (65098) for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:28:43 -0400 (EDT) From: PeteskiToo@aol.com Message-ID: <3c8.4756c0d.31dbf13b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:28:43 EDT Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] Re: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3c8.4756c0d.31dbf13b_boundary" X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 308 X-BeenThere: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org List-Id: pgp-middle-east.list.pacificgreens.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:34:35 -0000 --part1_3c8.4756c0d.31dbf13b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Gary - You asked a pretty specific question, pre-loaded with qualifiers. The=20 question was "If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring abo= ut=20 peace?" Instead of a direct response, you turn around and say that perha= ps we=20 are being condenscending towards Palestinians. Shouldn=E2=80=99t you spend= some time=20 with my answer to your question to determine what measures I suggested you=20 should begin advocating yourself? Peter In a message dated 7/3/06 10:42:43 AM, ashland@qwest.net writes: > Are we not being a little condescending toward the Palistinians (Pali.) ? > Should there not be some levels of responsibility on them in moving toward > peace and requiring some minimum levels of behaviour? Are you guys > suggesting (by ommission)that this would be=C2=A0 beneath your expectation= s of > their society? Is there some degree of 'cultural relativism' lurking here? >=20 > If we accept there are radicals in Israel (a small minority) who prefer th= e > status quo over peace with less territory, and expect the Israeli peace > movment to dominate the Israeli scene, what are the expectations and minim= um > efforts we need to see from the Pali side to give some faith to those > Israeli peacniks? >=20 > Gary > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:23 AM > Subject: Pgp-middle-east Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4 >=20 >=20 > Send Pgp-middle-east mailing list submissions to > pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org >=20 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://list.pacificgreens.org/mailman/listinfo/pgp-middle-east > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pgp-middle-east-request@list.pacificgreens.org >=20 > You can reach the person managing the list at > pgp-middle-east-owner@list.pacificgreens.org >=20 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pgp-middle-east digest..." >=20 >=20 > Today's Topics: >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 1. Re: solutions: end the occupation (PeteskiToo@aol.com) > =C2=A0=C2=A0 2. Re: solutions: end the occupation (stevethegreen@riseup.ne= t) > =C2=A0=C2=A0 3. RE: solutions (E. R. Douglas) >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:54:42 EDT > From: PeteskiToo@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Message-ID: <507.2f0822e.31daa5d2@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >=20 > Gary - > Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critical > point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian territor= y > in > the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including > settlements, > wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 The > other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect, > has > helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israelis. > Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, > including > a large number of women and children.=C2=A0 You don't seem to realize that= and I > find that troubling. >=20 > The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The Colonizatio= n > of Palestine Precludes Peace."=C2=A0=C2=A0 He stated that "Israel's occupa= tion of > Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land, > regardless > of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yasser > Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and Hamas controlling > the > parliament and cabinet."=C2=A0=C2=A0 http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2320.h= tm >=20 > So, the number one thing an Israeli leader needs to do is bring about an e= nd > to this occupation and a dismantling of the settlements.=C2=A0 Obviously,=20= this is > a > tall order but it is absolutely essential for the success of a two state > solution.=C2=A0 Perhaps there are areas of negotiation where land could be > exchanged as > part of a peace agreement,=C2=A0 but steps similar to the following need t= o be > done as soon as possible in order to begin to elicit in the Palestinian > people a > feeling of hope for the future and end their very real feelings of > existential > annihilation: > 1) Immediately suspend construction of all walls, roads, and settlements i= n > Palestinian areas.=C2=A0 If wall construction must continue, it will redir= ected > to > be on land recognized to be part Israel: i.e. the pre-1967 border. > 2) Immediately dismantle, as a start, all rogue settlements. > 3) Expel settlers illegally occupying Palestinian homes and businesses, li= ke > in Hebron. > 4) Suspend all housing and other subsidies to settlers living in the West > bank and East Jerusalem > 5) Begin dismanteling the worst parts of the existing wall, especially the > choke points around Palestinian towns and villages such as Bethlehem and > Qalqylia, and give full access to Palestinian land owners and farmers to > their lands. >=20 > 6) Remove racist grafiti and other signs of Jewish hatred against > Palestinians: Stars of David spray painted on Palestinian shops, "Arabs ar= e > Sand > Niggers," Gas the Arabs" and stuff like that which is common in Hebron and > which I've > seen with my own eyes. > 7) Release Palestinian prisoners held without charge, especially women and > children. Establish a transparent and accessible legal system that makes > clear > that prisoners held by Israel are properly held for real crimes and have > access > to attorneys and know the charges against them. > 8) Eliminate torture of Palestinians > 9) Dismantle checkpoints between Palestinian towns > 10) Bring the full weight of Israeli law enforcement to stop Settler > violence > and harassment against Palestinians, which prevent Palestinian children fr= om > going to school and prevent farmers from harvesting their fields. >=20 > These measures would go far, I believe, to reassure the Palestinians that, > at > long last, Israel has given up on its territorial desires over the remaini= ng > territories, a mere 22%, of historic Palestine.=C2=A0 This, coupled with a > concerted international effort to help the Palestinian economy and focus > Palestinians > on rebuilding a function society would go a long way in changing the dynam= ic > of the current situation. >=20 > As head of Israel, I would take the Hamas election as a rare opportunity t= o > be able to negotiate directly with the most hardened parts of Palestinian > society.=C2=A0 After all, if a peace agreement can be reached with Hamas,=20= it will > probably be one that has the widest possible support amongst Palestinians. > For there > to be peace, a large segment of the Palestinian population has to agree wi= th > the solution, including most members of militant groups. >=20 > When you talk about "some arbitrary 67 borders" it is clear, Gary, that yo= u > want peace and quiet for Israel without doing what is necessary for justic= e > for > the Palestinians and to bring Israel in line with International law and UN > resolutions. >=20 > When you complain that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, y= ou > obviously touch on a number of important issues.=C2=A0 From the Palestinia= n side, > 1) How can Palestinians be asked to accept Israel while Israel is actively > expanding its hold on Palestinian lands and still talks about "some > arbitrary 67 > borders?"=C2=A0 Acceptence can only come about, really, when the facts on=20= the > ground are no longer being changed by Israel to Israel's favor. It is real= ly > quite > unrealistic to expect acceptance otherwise. > 2) Palestinians are naturally reluctant to accept Israel as a state for > Jews. > After all, 20% of the population of Israel are non-Jewish Palestinians.= =C2=A0 In > our own country, we supposedly uphold the values that all men and women ar= e > created equal and value the separation of church from state.=C2=A0 By forc= ing the > Palestinians to accept Israel as a state for a specific ethnic/religious > group, > we are asking them to abandon principles we ourselves hold dear as > Americans. > Now it may be necessary for Palestinians to accept Israel as a "Jewish" > state > for the sake of peace, but it must be acknowledged that there are serious > moral and ethical problems with establishing a state creating special righ= ts > for > certain ethnic groups. >=20 > Gary, Israel is like a man who has stuck his fist in a hornet's nest.=C2= =A0 Even > though he is being stung, he fears that=C2=A0 removing his fist will let o= ut even > more hornets, which is certainly possible.=C2=A0 But, until he does remove= his > fist, > the hornets will get more and more angry and will continue to sting him.= =C2=A0 On > top of that, the man keeps insisting that the inside of the hornet's nest=20= is > an > "arbitrary" border! >=20 > I read today that 130,000 Gazans are without any fresh water and many othe= rs > are experiencing severe shortages because of Israel's recent military > actions. > Do you think they're ready to accept Israel? >=20 > Happy 4th of July! >=20 > Sincerely, > Peter >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Original Mess= age =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > If you were the head of Israel, what would you do to bring about peace. > Here are the circumstances. > a. Hamas is the elected govt. > b. Hamas does not disavow terrorism nor does it recognize Israel's right t= o > exist. Neither does Fatah! > Do you return to some arbitrary 67 borders and give back the territory tha= t > now protects your population centers that your enemies previously attacked > you > from? Remember they are still your sworn enemies, desiring your death and > not > preventing maniacal terrorists? > What do you do Mr/ms/ prime minister. You want peace. Please answer in the > affirmative, I.E. not what you don't do because that is too easy theoretic= al > and > easy to say if it is not your children getting blown up on buses on the wa= y > to day camp. Granted also you want Palestinian justice. > Gary >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://list.pacificgreens.org/pipermail/pgp-middle-east/attachments/200607= 03/ > d4349718/attachment-0001.htm >=20 > ------------------------------ >=20 > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: stevethegreen@riseup.net > Subject: Re: [Pgp-middle-east] solutions: end the occupation > To: pgp-middle-east@list.pacificgreens.org > Message-ID: <3930.stevethegreen.1151946651.squirrel@mail.riseup.net> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=3Diso-8859-1 >=20 > Excellent insightful and detailed comments Peter! >=20 > Thank you! >=20 > -Steve >=20 > > Gary - > > Unfortunately, what you list as "the circumstances" leaves out a critica= l > > point: the continuing expansion of Israel's hold over Palestinian > > territory in > > the West Bank and East Jerusalem via a number of measures including > > settlements, > > wall construction, settler road systems, and checkpoints and closures. > > The > > other fact is that Hamas has instituted a truce which, while not perfect= , > > has > > helped significantly reduce the number of terror attacks against Israeli= s. > > Most people getting killed in the conflict these days are Palestinian, > > including > > a large number of women and children.=C2=A0 You don't seem to realize th= at and > > I > > find that troubling. > > > > The title of a recent article by Jimmy Carter said it all "The > > Colonization > > of Palestine Precludes Peace."=C2=A0=C2=A0 He stated that "Israel's occu= pation of > > Palestine has obstructed a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Lan= d, > > regardless > > of whether Palestinians had no formalized government, one headed by Yass= er > > Arafat or Mahmoud Abbas, or with Abbas as president and H